Author Topic: Antagonist Balance  (Read 3525 times)

Daecion

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Antagonist Balance
on: August 28, 2019, 05:13:17 AM
Forgive me.  I'm feeling super frustrated after my last game, which is what pushed me to make this post.  I've had these thoughts for a while, and for the sake of catharsis, I shall now lay them out!  Basically, it was me, level 75, playing as Aneska and a team of lower level players consisting of a Harec, Shae, and Iune.  So apart from myself, not a very durable team.  We did that to ourselves.  Not a problem really.  The problem was trying to do Short-Fused against a max level Loaht who could take down me, HP boosting card and all, down in two hits of whatever he wanted, which other than the typical Strike spam, also included his weapon, which seemed to carpet bomb a wide area with explosives making both aiming on his part, and dodging on our part seem null.  Never mind the swarms of enemies or the barrage of explosives from the tanks.  We died way too fast to have a chance of dealing with the Antagonist, and any time we died, all he had to do was shoot the bomb and literally five seconds later it would explode.  ...I counted.  If we did manage to carry the bomb to the tank, his spawn was literally, again, being literal here,  right next to said tank.  So while he's still invulnerable he just walks up to the bomb and carries it away.  He just spawned so we are severely delayed before we can hurt him, while also being shot by the A.I. minions, and while he can destroy the bomb in seconds, it takes us significantly longer.

We lost the map, and after, I forget even how much time, our score was about a 2.6.  So, we didn't even get a decent reward for the game being stacked against us.

I wanted to tell that whole story to illustrate my stance.  The way things are set up right now can often lead to situations that just, aren't fun.  And that's not what games should be.  Often times, it feels like Spacelords is fun in spite of it's own design.  And to be clear, I do think it is a really great, fun game, but one that's still severely flawed.  I like the Antagonist being able to show up and provide a different sort of challenge to the Raiders.  I get what you're going for there, and in theory, I approve of it.  However... the game currently doesn't balance itself properly.  The challenge needs to be fair, and right now... that's not a guarantee.

There are far to many bonuses for being a higher level.  To the point where the lower level player can typically only win through sheer luck.  Skill and strategy do play a part, but the lower level player has the luxury of making (maybe) a single mistake.  The higher level player can, without hyperbole, make five.  That's... kind of a horrible feeling.  Level advantages can't come into play with this kind of matchmaking.  It's too unbalanced to be fun.  Frankly, I question the need for level advantages at all, but such is outside the purview of my current point.  Either way, players can't be allowed to have an advantage over others due to outside systems.  In any competitive experience, this only leads to frustration.  So if level advantages must remain, they should scale to either the party average, or at least to the highest player, though even that would be flawed.

Now, to continue from another perspective, I feel that the way the game encourages people to play as the Antagonist is flawed.  There are too many rewards that hinge exclusively on that particular playstyle, making the choice to be an Antagonist less one of gameplay preferences, and more one of necessity for the sake of that sweet, sweet loot.    I think players should be able to play the way they want without the game punishing them for it.

To which, the way things are currently set up within the matches themselves is also flawed.  You balance the rewards and enjoyment of four people, against the rewards and enjoyment of one.  ...And even then, the balance is skewed.  For the Antagonist to get that sweet, sweet loot, one person has to win it at the cost of four others, rendering the Raider's rewards miserable, and possibly ruining the experiences of four other players.  Inversely, playing as an Antagonist can be frustrated when it seems like the deck is stacked against you and your reward for the pain is peanuts.  The solution to this problem isn't so self-apparent to me as the others.  I can't say with certainty what the "right" fix is.  That said, in my opinion, the overall score should be equal for both sides, with the Antagonist's accomplishments being given as a bonus to the Raiders, and the Raider's accomplishments bolstering the Antagonist's reward, with the final score being determined per player by personal performance.  This may still result in uneven rewards, but it should be closer to balanced, and ensures that both sides can try their hardest without the other being punished for it.  I also think it would be a good idea to have an Antagonist exclusive currency comparable to the Leader currency, which would be awarded as a minor perk for winning as an Antagonist.  Something innocuous, but can still be used to assert some personal sense of accomplishment.

And I think that's all I had to say.  Honestly, I do feel better having gotten that out.  Maybe someday, the frustrations I have with the game will be alleviated, and we can all just play together without punishing or trolling each other.  Some day, maybe... but not today.  Still, I hope my words have some value.  Thank you for reading.

Cyber_hunter026

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Re: Antagonist Balance
Reply #1 on: August 28, 2019, 02:20:35 PM
Short fused, a map in general is definitely antagonist friendly. Especially for shae's and Alicia's who can use the elevated positions to get the upper hand on raiders. there's one such position, usually behind one of the splicer tanks where a harec or shae antagonist can literally camp up there and snipe the crap out of any raider in their line of sight.  unless you are a Alicia player, harec or ginebra. Good luck, because now you can tell they'll sit up there, snipe and  send wardogs with orders to distract raiders. Lining them up for head shots,  it's something imo that should be rectify as it's really really cheap and no one other than the characters i mentioned can properly punish an antagonist for this.

sonofoz

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Re: Antagonist Balance
Reply #2 on: August 28, 2019, 05:42:26 PM
@daecion
you probably encountered an mmr cheater.
high level but so weak he has to lower his mmr to gratify his ego with a win while team is just bashed by AI...
it's a real problem but mse think it barely never happens.

@cyber
in fact it's pretty easy to distract shae on this map for people having brains...
and ginebra, harec, shae, rak, doldren, valeria or lycus for example can do that there.

Cyber_hunter026

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Re: Antagonist Balance
Reply #3 on: August 29, 2019, 08:57:42 AM
You seem to have reading comprehension issues and didn't exactly pay attention to what i wrote. I mentioned harec, ginebra, Alicia and a raider shae. What you failed to understand was that no one other than harec, alicia, ginebra can actually reach a shae antagonist. she can easily depending on the player can camp up there,  give out orders to wardog grunts to either protect, go after any member of the team.  yes it takes a coordinated team of raiders to distract shae or come. Up from behind, but there is the issue of the tall structure that no one,  other than the aforementioned characters can reach.   But that's rare on spacelords. doldren can snipe,  but can't reach shae, harec can,  that's if they aren't already being discovered by the antagonist.  Alicia is about the only one who can actually get the drop on her.  as mentioned by others, unless ginebra can sneak up from behind without being unoticed.  with the master of puppets update, this makes a shae antagonist more focused on picking off raiders while the minions and slicer tank elites do the dirty work.  I would further explain, but you are impossible to Converse with  without resorting to 5th grade name calling and insults. If you do respond, which you will,  I'm not going even waste my time reading your drivel good day 😊

sonofoz

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Re: Antagonist Balance
Reply #4 on: August 29, 2019, 09:02:03 AM
Quote
no one other than harec, alicia, ginebra can actually reach a shae antagonist.

as i said :

Quote
in fact it's pretty easy to distract shae on this map for people having brains...
and ginebra, harec, shae, rak, doldren, valeria or lycus for example can do that there.

but i could have talked about iune, hive in full protection or a well placed schneider's drone too (and certainly NOT alicia, you genius...).
so learn how to play and buy a brain.
good day.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 09:25:37 AM by sonofoz »