Author Topic: Why aleph drops cripple the game  (Read 5075 times)

Placelord

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Why aleph drops cripple the game
on: May 08, 2019, 09:31:25 AM
The aleph drop mechanic needs to be reverted (not altered, reverted). However biased, I'm going to try to show why this isn't just resistance to change. Though, before I criticize this mechanic I'd like to give credit where it is due.

This should curtail aleph hogs, making it so that people who have a full stack are contributing rather than flushing away important resources. It allows raiders the agency to choose to give something up for the benefit of their teammates. It dynamically adds a point of contention to any encounter.

It's a good idea, in theory. Now, here's where it breaks down.

1. It hampers momentum.
I think this is the most apparent problem, but it bears analysis. Put simply, everytime you defeat an opponent you must stop, reorient yourself to specific angle and proceed in essentially the opposite direction for a specific distance.

While I can concede practice can alleviate the setback, it will remain cumbersome. With as hectic as the game can be this simple manuever is likely to have you doubling back because you're trying to be quick and missed, leaving you distracted and vulnerable.

Since the drops are behind you and to your side, they are more likely than not going to be off camera. Until you get a sense of the drop position relative to the direction you were facing when you entered the grapple, you will have to reorient the camera up to 360 degrees just to locate it.

2. Picking up a drop is not nearly as game-feely as before.

The time between touching the drop and seeing the aleph indicator on your HUD is too long. With all of the particles, sound effects and force feedback in combat, the sound and shine of picking up aleph often flies under the radar of my senses. Before, you never had to take you head out of the action to know you have aleph.

Between these aspects and the positioning of the drop relative to my FoV, I'm I usually not sure if I made the pick up before it becomes a hassle. I didn't realize how much I took for granted how snappy and kenestetic the old way was.

3. Elites/antags picking up aleph is a recipe for disaster.

This one is a doozy, because it amplifies a few existing bugbears. There really is a massive amount of ways this can destroy balance. Instead, I hope this hypothetical is enough to get your imagination brewing.

You are engaging an Elite ahead with an ad or two approaching from the sides. You're going to sponge the ad fire until you can close the gap and grapple the Elite. The ads are cutting pretty deep but you know you're back to full health if you can just take the Elite out.

As you go in for the kill, a gate to your left spawns an ad and Elite B. Elite B rushes, but you've connected Elite A, so B bounces off. The animation concludes, a few frames pass and the aleph drops to your left.

That Elite you bounced is now closer to the aleph than you are. Remember, you're at low health because you tanked to get here. And, there are still 3 ads laying down fire.

Your I-frames wear off as you scramble for the aleph but its too late. The immediate frame after he picks it up, he goes invincible and that's lights out.  Or, the ads spray you down you as soon as your I-frames drop.

4. Aleph drop grinds against the core gameplay loop.

This game is constantly frantic. If you're going to beat back the hoards your gonna have to wade in and get dirty. Unfortunately, it seems like that calculated risks just aren't feasible anymore.

Not to say that this is Leeerooooy: the game, you've got to route your targets wisely. IMO there are two major 'links' that allow you to chain, extend, and survive long engagements. These links being: mobility options, and "health checkpoints" as I'm calling them.

Mobility is hampered greatly by the Aleph drop dictating the subsequent action. To keep up a kill chain after a finisher I usually roll, jump, stalk, teleport, climb, wall jump, punch, grapple ect. Now I have to stop,  then move backwards and to the left, every time, or else.

Health checkpoints; without these, long chains aren't possible. Like in a racing game, "if you can get to this point, you may continue". It feels rewarding to push the limit and squeeze through ready for another go.

Theoretically that sensation can still be attainable under this system. Unfortunately, you cannot collect aleph once full. A full stack raider isn't going to want to dive in knowing they have no safety net.

5. Think of the children.

Tonight I've seen noobs getting shredded like I've never imagined. Every game, we're in the survive spiral within the first few minutes. With an mmr in the 30s. I've played with tons of noobs, I was a noob, this is not this common.

It's fun to talk shit about baby Hareks, but how often do you actually lose mentor matches? It's not simple inexperience, the core loop is broken currently. This is a game where you're up against squads of dudes in which defeating any individual dude is statisticaly more damaging to your team.

Imagine trying to get into this game right now.

TLDR
The aleph drop system is cumbersome, counterintuitive, distracting, and breaks the core loop without offering a viable substitute. Please revert this change.

Whatever

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Re: Why aleph drops cripple the game
Reply #1 on: May 08, 2019, 03:16:07 PM
Seconded.

B30

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Re: Why aleph drops cripple the game
Reply #2 on: May 08, 2019, 07:23:50 PM
Yes, this needs to change, revert it back, that would be best! And we pretend it never happend, everyone screws up at times.

Satoro

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Re: Why aleph drops cripple the game
Reply #3 on: May 08, 2019, 08:01:05 PM
Or maybe combine the old system with the new one. Make the aleph/ammo drop only if the person that killed is at max. If the person that kills the elite/ant isn't at 5 stacks/full ammo it automatically gets picked up like with old system.

Placelord

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Re: Why aleph drops cripple the game
Reply #4 on: May 08, 2019, 10:33:15 PM
Or maybe combine the old system with the new one. Make the aleph/ammo drop only if the person that killed is at max. If the person that kills the elite/ant isn't at 5 stacks/full ammo it automatically gets picked up like with old system.

If you cannot get aleph at 5 stacks that means no full heal. If I'm wrong, and cqc kills on elites/antags still grant health even if the raiders cannot pick up the aleph; then I will be glad to know that. But as far as I know aleph = full heal and 5 stacks cannot pick up aleph.

Therefore changing the system to only drop excess aleph will still result in 5 stacks not healing from elite kills. IE if I have a 5 stack I am not motivated to go balls deep because I don't have the safety net of tagging an elite for heals.

Its still going to fuck the system as I outlined out in point 4 under "health checkpoints". I'm not hating, I thought it was a good compromise until I actually stopped to think about it.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2019, 10:37:49 PM by Placelord »

Aive

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Re: Why aleph drops cripple the game
Reply #5 on: May 09, 2019, 09:14:31 AM
i dont know if its latency thing or not but i had my aleph stolen right under my nose while i am in finisher animation... there like 0.5s delay before  you can move and anyone strolling by can pick it up before you, friend or foe. also engineers pick up aleph to now?

B30

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Re: Why aleph drops cripple the game
Reply #6 on: May 09, 2019, 11:09:39 AM
… but i had my aleph stolen right under my nose while i am in finisher animation... there like 0.5s delay before  you can move and anyone strolling by can pick it up before you, friend or foe.  …

It's awful, I've already stolen the aleph unintentional while passing by, and I've been robbed several times myself - it's just terrible right now.

Placelord

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Re: Why aleph drops cripple the game
Reply #7 on: May 09, 2019, 05:39:41 PM
Oh Jesus I hadn't even considered how server latency will effect this. Damn

B30

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Re: Why aleph drops cripple the game
Reply #8 on: May 09, 2019, 07:23:36 PM
As it were with the updates before, one step forward and two steps back.

An MVP feature in a team-based game is never a good idea, and if it's built in the way it is right now (counting only kills), seriously, not a good idea. Even now with the new adventurer mode, where everyone wants to have the highest scores - what were they thinking?

And of course the new aleph drops, oh boy!? It was fine (and most importantly, it was fun!!!) the way it was, I don’t know why they had to change it at all. This new drop-mechanic maybe useful for ammo drops, but certainly not for aleph drops! Maybe they didn’t notice because they do not REALLY play their own game - I don’t know that. But what I know is, if you play the game now, you're losing all momentum and you can’t make crazy combos any more, because you're always worried about getting the aleph, somewhere on the field BEHIND (!!!) you. That's just bad design compared to what it was before. MSE, please think again.

Placelord

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Re: Why aleph drops cripple the game
Reply #9 on: May 09, 2019, 10:24:15 PM
I assume they have to have tested it at least. Being a former hobbyist designer I can understand how being so immersed in the design kind of gives you blinders. They probably were so focused on making it "work" that they couldn't conceive of how a player is going to actually experience it.

Placelord

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Re: Why aleph drops cripple the game
Reply #10 on: May 10, 2019, 01:16:19 AM
So right! The game feel was great. It was immediate, visceral and communicated your resource level without taking you out of the action. I liked how it held you in place for a beat so that you could adjust your camera to assess your surroundings.

I don't know if this is objectively bad or just bad compared to what we're used to. Like, if the game launched this way would it be problem?

I think so because of the way it breaks flow. People might not have gotten as hooked under these circumstances. As I've stated, the game flow was the primary reason I stuck with this game.

Placelord

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Re: Why aleph drops cripple the game
Reply #11 on: May 10, 2019, 03:27:54 AM
Exactly. Keep everything else. Just revert the aleph system.

NikkiRevenge85

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Re: Why aleph drops cripple the game
Reply #12 on: May 12, 2019, 10:24:12 PM
Totally agree! The biggest issue is that it disrupts and slows the momentum of the game. I Cant tell you how many time me and my friends have either misses our aleph or had to stand there looking for it for a second or 2. A second may not seem long but when annantag is looking for an opening it's a big deal. This has completly made missions less polished and messy. I wouldn't mind having aleph drop if the person was maxed out but otherwise there is no need. No one is going to choose to give there aleph away so what is the function? I originally thought that maybe it would drop with sniper hits so that snipers aren't waiting all the aleph but since it's still melle only there really is no need. I'm not only having antags pick it up but also other teammate are picking it up by accident simply because they're close to the drop. Also the drop locations make no sense sometime it's to the left or right in front behind I havent been able to really predict where it will drop. This is another one of those ideas that sounded good in theory but when implemented it falls short. The aleph should only drop if your not maxed same with ammo.

XenoBladeX-3

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Re: Why aleph drops cripple the game
Reply #13 on: May 14, 2019, 06:28:50 AM
Guess im one of the few who doesnt mind the changes...oh well

MSE_Ojuel

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Re: Why aleph drops cripple the game
Reply #14 on: May 14, 2019, 10:48:49 AM
Thank you for all your feedback and points of view, it's always interesting to see your reaction to new playable features. :)

I answered something related to these mechanics in this thread: https://www.spacelordsthegame.com/community/index.php?topic=27026.msg41576#msg41576