Author Topic: Mentor Matches should be Gentle  (Read 276 times)

XjabberwockieX

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Mentor Matches should be Gentle
on: December 03, 2018, 06:24:29 PM
Mmr for mentor matches should be set to the mmr of the new player. I can't imagine many level 1's wanting to return to a game after 7 or 8 Hades division engulf them ad  nauseum at 55% mmr on Low Blow while everyone else is chasing down 4 or 5 engineers.
  It might mean an easier ride for everyone, but if the idea is to help bring them into this world and get familiarized with their characters, then that's how it should be set up. Try and see it from the level 1 perspective too. Alongside them are level 100+ players. I I don't know about you but if I'm the starting player  feeling the pressure to not let the team down, to pull my own weight as best as I can. Reality is, the level 1 is completely useless, completely ineffective at dealing damage, feeds the elites and a complete hinderence to the team. If this is the point of mentor matches, it's stupid.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 07:43:18 PM by XjabberwockieX »

Level9Drow

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Re: Mentor Matches should be Gentle
Reply #1 on: December 03, 2018, 08:52:52 PM
I agree, the Mentor Matches should not average the higher level players MMR into it. Despite the new changes I still have to lower MMR. And among those reasons one of them is because I have friends who try the game with me and because my MMr may be too high they get slaughtered and believe that this is an accurate representation of the game for all players. I have to explain to them it was my MMR that slaughtered them and then I have to lower my MMR and ask them back promising it will be less difficult next time.

Tekato

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Re: Mentor Matches should be Gentle
Reply #2 on: December 03, 2018, 09:45:25 PM
I agree, the Mentor Matches should not average the higher level players MMR into it. Despite the new changes I still have to lower MMR. And among those reasons one of them is because I have friends who try the game with me and because my MMr may be too high they get slaughtered and believe that this is an accurate representation of the game for all players. I have to explain to them it was my MMR that slaughtered them and then I have to lower my MMR and ask them back promising it will be less difficult next time.
Then you get a lv 100+ antag that slaughters them and only focuses on the low lvs because they're easy prey and he runs away from you because he knows he will lose. These players will most likely never come back.

L E T H A L ☆ C E N T A U R I

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Re: Mentor Matches should be Gentle
Reply #3 on: December 03, 2018, 10:31:04 PM
Exactly!! Also if they're not able to be an antag yet, they shouldn't be forced to fight against one. It's totally unfair for them and especially if the antag is in the 100+ range.

PohtHehd

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Re: Mentor Matches should be Gentle
Reply #4 on: December 04, 2018, 01:04:28 AM
Exactly!! Also if they're not able to be an antag yet, they shouldn't be forced to fight against one. It's totally unfair for them and especially if the antag is in the 100+ range.

At first it sounds like a good progressive idea but it gives a false representation of what the rest of their matches will be like.

I think if an Antagonist enters into a Mentor Match then the difficulty should get a flat-rate debuff depending on the number of below level 10 players that are present. This way high level players aren't given a bunch of bullshit to deal with while they handle the Antagonist, so it is up to those player's skill levels to determine the winner and the low levels can learn the objectives without being bothered too much.

The high level players are responsible for mentoring the low level players. This means dealing with an Antagonist so they don't get butchered by them. If you're not doing this then you are not a good mentor. If you're doing this then you probably don't care too much about Antagonists in Mentor Matches.

This, to me, is the purpose of Mentor Matches. To truly test your skill when the stakes have been raised.

The reward for the Antagonist being better than the the high level Raiders in this instance is they get to feast on the low levels. This should give any high level player motivation to defend them, after all, you are defending your own lives. If you cannot defend against said Antagonist then it is not the game's fault, not the Antagonist's fault and not the low levels fault. It is your fault for not properly preparing for an inevitable Mentor Match.

The whole basis of this game; "Embark on an epic sci-fi, free-to-play adventure. Spacelords is a brand-new take on the shooter genre. Through its 4 vs 1 counter-operative campaign, you experience both sides of the story: Join the Raiders in their fight to free the legendary Broken Planet... or switch sides and fight as the Antagonist alongside the invading hordes!"

What you are suggesting, Lethal, is the wholesale neutering of its core feature to appease people who may not even play past 4 hours either way.

Mentor Matches are exciting because you get to show off in front of new players and when an Antagonist joins in then it is all the better for it.

I take care of my mentees, you should too.

Tekato

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Re: Mentor Matches should be Gentle
Reply #5 on: December 04, 2018, 02:30:47 AM
Exactly!! Also if they're not able to be an antag yet, they shouldn't be forced to fight against one. It's totally unfair for them and especially if the antag is in the 100+ range.

At first it sounds like a good progressive idea but it gives a false representation of what the rest of their matches will be like.

I think if an Antagonist enters into a Mentor Match then the difficulty should get a flat-rate debuff depending on the number of below level 10 players that are present. This way high level players aren't given a bunch of bullshit to deal with while they handle the Antagonist, so it is up to those player's skill levels to determine the winner and the low levels can learn the objectives without being bothered too much.

The high level players are responsible for mentoring the low level players. This means dealing with an Antagonist so they don't get butchered by them. If you're not doing this then you are not a good mentor. If you're doing this then you probably don't care too much about Antagonists in Mentor Matches.

This, to me, is the purpose of Mentor Matches. To truly test your skill when the stakes have been raised.

The reward for the Antagonist being better than the the high level Raiders in this instance is they get to feast on the low levels. This should give any high level player motivation to defend them, after all, you are defending your own lives. If you cannot defend against said Antagonist then it is not the game's fault, not the Antagonist's fault and not the low levels fault. It is your fault for not properly preparing for an inevitable Mentor Match.

The whole basis of this game; "Embark on an epic sci-fi, free-to-play adventure. Spacelords is a brand-new take on the shooter genre. Through its 4 vs 1 counter-operative campaign, you experience both sides of the story: Join the Raiders in their fight to free the legendary Broken Planet... or switch sides and fight as the Antagonist alongside the invading hordes!"

What you are suggesting, Lethal, is the wholesale neutering of its core feature to appease people who may not even play past 4 hours either way.

Mentor Matches are exciting because you get to show off in front of new players and when an Antagonist joins in then it is all the better for it.

I take care of my mentees, you should too.
The problem with this is the antagonist is obviously going to pick a character that counters the highest level raider. For example lets say the high level carry picks ayana and the antag chooses hans. Good luck trying to get your mines to go off on a flying target and he also makes her ability useless. Or lets say you end up picking a slow fifth council character and they're a good harec?

Power Penguin

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Re: Mentor Matches should be Gentle
Reply #6 on: December 04, 2018, 03:29:12 AM
Better that they play for 4 hours than leave after their first antag stomping. You can harp all you want on "Oh but it's the spirit of the game, blah blah blah..." all you want, but until the incorporate good communication systems (so you can actually sherpa people through missions effectively) in the game, mentor matches with antag are more of a pain than fun.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 03:34:37 AM by Power Penguin »

L E T H A L ☆ C E N T A U R I

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Re: Mentor Matches should be Gentle
Reply #7 on: December 04, 2018, 11:59:00 PM
Better that they play for 4 hours than leave after their first antag stomping. You can harp all you want on "Oh but it's the spirit of the game, blah blah blah..." all you want, but until the incorporate good communication systems (so you can actually sherpa people through missions effectively) in the game, mentor matches with antag are more of a pain than fun.

Exactly I don't agree with Poh at all. Mentor matches aren't even mentor matches because there isn't any chat to communicate and .... actually mentor on. There is literally no way for me to "take care" of them.

They shouldn't be facing people hundreds of levels above them no matter what. Plain and simple. It's not fair to them.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 12:01:30 AM by L E T H A L ☆ C E N T A U R I »

PohtHehd

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Re: Mentor Matches should be Gentle
Reply #8 on: December 05, 2018, 02:45:08 AM
Better that they play for 4 hours than leave after their first antag stomping. You can harp all you want on "Oh but it's the spirit of the game, blah blah blah..." all you want, but until the incorporate good communication systems (so you can actually sherpa people through missions effectively) in the game, mentor matches with antag are more of a pain than fun.

Exactly I don't agree with Poh at all. Mentor matches aren't even mentor matches because there isn't any chat to communicate and .... actually mentor on. There is literally no way for me to "take care" of them.

They shouldn't be facing people hundreds of levels above them no matter what. Plain and simple. It's not fair to them.

Yeah and when you try outside of the game to instruct people on the proper way to do something they usually...what? Thank you? Listen to you?  Don't take offense?

Doubtful. Instead I believe covering the gameplay aspects outside of their ability is more efficient. So what if I can tell some lowbie "Hey, dude, there is an Antagonist coming!" if they didn't know what to do with an Antagonist in the game, i.e. look for the Antagonist, then they sure as shit aren't gonna do fuck all to be able to stop them with my warning.

I don't know if you have ever communicated with an average Spacelords player with the in-game chat. I have. They are what you'd expect from your average online gamer type. Mean, rude, offensive, stupid and bossy. I no longer keep my voice chat on because I have run into more than enough nonsense coming my way from people.

I think a lot of your frustrations with Mentor Matches would be solved, Penguin and Lethal, if you started protecting your lowbies a lot more.

Don't let me tell you how to play, of course. But, I don't find eliminating Antagonists from Mentor Matches to mean much. It lessens the game. It makes it easy and it goes against the philosophy of the game design.

It doesn't matter if you agree with me or not, the developers possess the "word of god" in this situation and the quotation I posted is from the front of the website. And countless times Karen or Ojuel or Bert have said that the central concept of this game is the Antagonist feature.

It is not going away no matter how unfair you think it is. Again, maybe you should re-think how you handle Mentor Matches if you find them so frustrating that they require a fundamental change to the game to fix.

Because..I don't see the necessity of such changes. I like Mentor Matches and I like them with Antagonists. The game would be less without this. It would basically be..not the game I treasure.

But, if y'all want an easy win button there are a plethora of games with such conveniences. Warframe comes to mind, pretty much can't lose in that one.

Power Penguin

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Re: Mentor Matches should be Gentle
Reply #9 on: December 05, 2018, 03:35:33 PM
Well It's pretty obvious that the way it is right now the current system isn't beneficial for the new player experience. I understand that you enjoy the way it currently is, but it's not about what you like. It's about what we think would be a positive change that could possibly increase player retention (which the game sorely needs, at least on PC it does). And besides the devs can change their minds whenever they want. In a F2P game like this nothing can be completely set in stone. F2P games need to have the capacity to evolve if they want to survive. As for the whole baby your mentees through out the mission to "increase enjoyment", well I'm not their mother and they don't really learn anything from getting carried and doing nothing.

PohtHehd

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Re: Mentor Matches should be Gentle
Reply #10 on: December 06, 2018, 06:59:56 PM
Well It's pretty obvious that the way it is right now the current system isn't beneficial for the new player experience. I understand that you enjoy the way it currently is, but it's not about what you like. It's about what we think would be a positive change that could possibly increase player retention (which the game sorely needs, at least on PC it does). And besides the devs can change their minds whenever they want. In a F2P game like this nothing can be completely set in stone. F2P games need to have the capacity to evolve if they want to survive. As for the whole baby your mentees through out the mission to "increase enjoyment", well I'm not their mother and they don't really learn anything from getting carried and doing nothing.

That..exactly proves my point. You are the one expecting a low level to go out on their own and win and then you get frustrated when you lose? Come on, now.

It is a squad game. There are only 3 other people that you have to work with, I don't think you get that. Because you are saying "No, I don't want to work with the low level, they should just KNOW what to do." then you see the Antagonist whoop their ass and it seems like the first thing you think is "Well, that is unfair. Better remove Antagonists, the core feature of the game, from Mentor Matches. The low level stands no chance!"

It seems like you aren't even trying to be a mentor. You just want the game to be easier.

I mean..seriously. Does this logic actually make sense to you?