Author Topic: New Players not ready for Antagonist?  (Read 10097 times)

TehMud

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New Players not ready for Antagonist?
on: June 12, 2017, 02:56:02 AM
So I love playing as Antagonist as well as fighting one, but  I feel alot of new players may not know what they're in for.

While being the Antagonist I've ended "Hanging by a Thread" in 5-10 minutes just because Lycus dies, and while I'm having fun I'm realizing I might be turning new players off.

I dunno just something to note.

Paper Dragon

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Re: New Players not ready for Antagonist?
Reply #1 on: June 12, 2017, 09:48:56 AM
I've honestly never been able to play as an antagonist, and I've only ever been matched against one once.
It just never puts me into a game as one.

Ebisu_rkz

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Re: New Players not ready for Antagonist?
Reply #2 on: June 12, 2017, 12:06:50 PM
I love playing against an antagonist, it give more fun and unpredictibility to the mission.

A few things that I have noted on my games, mostly playing as raider:
- In that specific mission is really easy to fail when you are new and don't know how that mission works and things go wrong.

- I have failed this mission in 5 minutes even when we have maintained in check the antagonist between 2 raiders, we literally killed him every time he spawned. This map is smaller than other maps, it's really easy to find and reach the enemy.

- In my case, I first thought that the blue minions were your allies. Yes, I know that this sound stupid, but in other games the blue colour is for allies :P. I don't think a lot of ppl had this problem.

- If you know how to use melee, it's really easy to kill new players. I would like to see more ways to defend when in melee (some insta way to defend yourself from grappling like dodging against punching, I hadn't the same succes using dodge against the grapple). I also think that the grapple insta-kill make it easy to kill any type of player, but that is only my opinion.

- IMO, a tutorial game against an AI antagonist explaining in detail the melee system would help a lot, so you could see how easy you can die if you are careless. It's the core and easier way to kill players. So, when you are not used to this system but the enemy know how to use it can be a little overwhelming.

EDIT: I know that there is a tutorial game playing as Harec, but it's not the same feeling. You are playing against simple enemies, when you play as raider and an antagonist appear you don't know what to expect. I didn't read the guide, and I don't think a lot of people will read it TBH.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 12:17:57 PM by Ebisu_rkz »

Glenn777

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Re: New Players not ready for Antagonist?
Reply #3 on: June 12, 2017, 07:01:54 PM
I love playing against an antagonist, it give more fun and unpredictibility to the mission.

A few things that I have noted on my games, mostly playing as raider:
- In that specific mission is really easy to fail when you are new and don't know how that mission works and things go wrong.

- I have failed this mission in 5 minutes even when we have maintained in check the antagonist between 2 raiders, we literally killed him every time he spawned. This map is smaller than other maps, it's really easy to find and reach the enemy.

- In my case, I first thought that the blue minions were your allies. Yes, I know that this sound stupid, but in other games the blue colour is for allies :P. I don't think a lot of ppl had this problem.

- If you know how to use melee, it's really easy to kill new players. I would like to see more ways to defend when in melee (some insta way to defend yourself from grappling like dodging against punching, I hadn't the same succes using dodge against the grapple). I also think that the grapple insta-kill make it easy to kill any type of player, but that is only my opinion.

- IMO, a tutorial game against an AI antagonist explaining in detail the melee system would help a lot, so you could see how easy you can die if you are careless. It's the core and easier way to kill players. So, when you are not used to this system but the enemy know how to use it can be a little overwhelming.

EDIT: I know that there is a tutorial game playing as Harec, but it's not the same feeling. You are playing against simple enemies, when you play as raider and an antagonist appear you don't know what to expect. I didn't read the guide, and I don't think a lot of people will read it TBH.
I believe new players do not need to be coddled like baby lambs, everyone starts out as a new player and these same players don't need extra care because they didn't take the time to carefully read the tutorial guide or have the Patience to adapt to game machanics. New players especially don't need extra directions when playing against a seasoned player or a warm up to fight against seasoned players. Losing to someone who knew more than you is not an act of terror, its a learning curve that has a quota to fill and the new player must fulfill it in order to get better at the game. Learning new thing and winning with your own direction is what makes a person feel rewarded not the abuse of a redundant mode for people who want to be victims in a game. There is no such thing as a great game because it cradles new players and there never will be. This is the way I see it.

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Zumbledum

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Re: New Players not ready for Antagonist?
Reply #4 on: June 13, 2017, 08:35:06 AM
I believe new players do not need to be coddled like baby lambs, everyone starts out as a new player and these same players don't need extra care because they didn't take the time to carefully read the tutorial guide or have the Patience to adapt to game machanics. New players especially don't need extra directions when playing against a seasoned player or a warm up to fight against seasoned players. Losing to someone who knew more than you is not an act of terror, its a learning curve that has a quota to fill and the new player must fulfill it in order to get better at the game. Learning new thing and winning with your own direction is what makes a person feel rewarded not the abuse of a redundant mode for people who want to be victims in a game. There is no such thing as a great game because it cradles new players and there never will be. This is the way I see it.

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I think how much of a barrier to entry this situation is depends largely on the type of game, something like dark souls its not going to be any issue , you have to pay up front to play and its a niche game so its appealing to that crowd, now if this game is as i suspect a free to play one thats different people are not coming in already pre invested (or at least a lot will be simply trying it because it looks nice and is free/cheap)
And in that case it is going to matter, a new player gets utterly destroyed by an experienced antagonist they are at least as likely to think its junk pay to win and just stop right there, or to just assume too much time will be required to get on a level playing field.
And the Genre matters here to , is this a competitive shooter? if it is then i think your going to be right a lot of the time, but if its a 4 player co op game , i just dont see that demographic being largely into it.

Glenn777

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Re: New Players not ready for Antagonist?
Reply #5 on: June 13, 2017, 08:12:12 AM
I cannot answer the question you brought to attention. I am a beta player. I am Not one of the devs. But I hope I understand your meaning. Your saying that games that have or should have a learning curve are only bought and sold like dark souls? what about overwatch? Or What about free to play games like smite, warframe, paladins, or even skyforge? Do these games not have a learning curve that can be managed?  and you also brought up communities. Is it not possible to contact a seasoned  player that is possibly within the community or playing on your team or against you? is there something wrong with helping new players get better at the game by sharing personal knowledge and common failures? I don't think so. COOP is a great advantage that new players and seasoned players can use in 4v1 in order to dominate an antagonist because its something an antagonist can't use during a fight. this is what I think.

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Ebisu_rkz

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Re: New Players not ready for Antagonist?
Reply #6 on: June 13, 2017, 09:56:11 AM
I believe new players do not need to be coddled like baby lambs, everyone starts out as a new player and these same players don't need extra care because they didn't take the time to carefully read the tutorial guide or have the Patience to adapt to game machanics. New players especially don't need extra directions when playing against a seasoned player or a warm up to fight against seasoned players. Losing to someone who knew more than you is not an act of terror, its a learning curve that has a quota to fill and the new player must fulfill it in order to get better at the game. Learning new thing and winning with your own direction is what makes a person feel rewarded not the abuse of a redundant mode for people who want to be victims in a game. There is no such thing as a great game because it cradles new players and there never will be. This is the way I see it.

Sent from my U673C using Tapatalk

I never said it was an act of terror, it's normal to lose and learn from the experience if you are new playing against an experienced player. I am not against that.

The problem is how you lose and letting that things to happen. Let's be honest, it's easy to die in this game, and we have an skill that is an insta-kill without any CD (I am not against that, I like the grappling) and the punching is not far away from that.

The AI is harder than other games too, something that I really enjoyed tbh. Here I think that the first map doesn't help at all with new players, it's an small map, easily attacked from behind when undercover and sometimes you fail the mission without knowing what happened. IMO and IME, the first zone is the hardest. The curve of difficulty goes from hardest to easier as you pass to the next zones, instead of increasing the difficulty and starting easier... and that is the first coop mission of the prologue... so probably the first 4v1 a player will play.

IMO, the games against the current AI can be misleading to what to expect when playing against other players. The AI always dodges the grappling coming from the front, instead most players are completely the opposite and they abuse a lot from using the melee in a smart way.

I know that I would play this game like this, I know that any other dedicated player could play this game too, but I know that my friend that play games maybe a few hours a week will play one game and won't return again if he is more time dead than alive.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2017, 10:02:41 AM by Ebisu_rkz »

Glenn777

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Re: New Players not ready for Antagonist?
Reply #7 on: June 13, 2017, 11:04:26 PM
I believe new players do not need to be coddled like baby lambs, everyone starts out as a new player and these same players don't need extra care because they didn't take the time to carefully read the tutorial guide or have the Patience to adapt to game machanics. New players especially don't need extra directions when playing against a seasoned player or a warm up to fight against seasoned players. Losing to someone who knew more than you is not an act of terror, its a learning curve that has a quota to fill and the new player must fulfill it in order to get better at the game. Learning new thing and winning with your own direction is what makes a person feel rewarded not the abuse of a redundant mode for people who want to be victims in a game. There is no such thing as a great game because it cradles new players and there never will be. This is the way I see it.

Sent from my U673C using Tapatalk

I never said it was an act of terror, it's normal to lose and learn from the experience if you are new playing against an experienced player. I am not against that.

The problem is how you lose and letting that things to happen. Let's be honest, it's easy to die in this game, and we have an skill that is an insta-kill without any CD (I am not against that, I like the grappling) and the punching is not far away from that.

The AI is harder than other games too, something that I really enjoyed tbh. Here I think that the first map doesn't help at all with new players, it's an small map, easily attacked from behind when undercover and sometimes you fail the mission without knowing what happened. IMO and IME, the first zone is the hardest. The curve of difficulty goes from hardest to easier as you pass to the next zones, instead of increasing the difficulty and starting easier... and that is the first coop mission of the prologue... so probably the first 4v1 a player will play.

IMO, the games against the current AI can be misleading to what to expect when playing against other players. The AI always dodges the grappling coming from the front, instead most players are completely the opposite and they abuse a lot from using the melee in a smart way.

I know that I would play this game like this, I know that any other dedicated player could play this game too, but I know that my friend that play games maybe a few hours a week will play one game and won't return again if he is more time dead than alive.
Its easy to die in a large number of games. And even more so to have a greater death to kill ratio. Dying is part of the experience in my opinion. So if your saying its what constantly kills you that raises a problem in a game. Tell me what could do so without reasonable cause? The few things i can think of that would do so is hackers or environmental bugs within the game. if a seasoned player is out playing you or your friend, what's wrong with grouping up on him?

Also, I would like to know what games your friend would show interest in, if you both are okay with this. If he plays a video game for what I'm assuming would at least be 1 out of the 7 days in a week, why would he show interest in any game that would require his Patience and time? Why would a game like this stop him from having fun without his Patience and time committed to the game?

And that first mission you speak of, I'm guessing you mean the mission rescuing lycus yes? In my experience it depends on the person. During that mission, if I lost it was because lycus wasn't protected in the first part of the mission, or my team died to many times in the last part of the mission. I also listen to the pilot throughout the mission, he tells you the objective and when the objective is being compromised or when the enemy spawns. But thinking about it now, maybe he wasn't as helpful to everyone else relative to myself.

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Glenn777

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Re: New Players not ready for Antagonist?
Reply #8 on: June 13, 2017, 11:04:26 PM
I believe new players do not need to be coddled like baby lambs, everyone starts out as a new player and these same players don't need extra care because they didn't take the time to carefully read the tutorial guide or have the Patience to adapt to game machanics. New players especially don't need extra directions when playing against a seasoned player or a warm up to fight against seasoned players. Losing to someone who knew more than you is not an act of terror, its a learning curve that has a quota to fill and the new player must fulfill it in order to get better at the game. Learning new thing and winning with your own direction is what makes a person feel rewarded not the abuse of a redundant mode for people who want to be victims in a game. There is no such thing as a great game because it cradles new players and there never will be. This is the way I see it.

Sent from my U673C using Tapatalk

I never said it was an act of terror, it's normal to lose and learn from the experience if you are new playing against an experienced player. I am not against that.

The problem is how you lose and letting that things to happen. Let's be honest, it's easy to die in this game, and we have an skill that is an insta-kill without any CD (I am not against that, I like the grappling) and the punching is not far away from that.

The AI is harder than other games too, something that I really enjoyed tbh. Here I think that the first map doesn't help at all with new players, it's an small map, easily attacked from behind when undercover and sometimes you fail the mission without knowing what happened. IMO and IME, the first zone is the hardest. The curve of difficulty goes from hardest to easier as you pass to the next zones, instead of increasing the difficulty and starting easier... and that is the first coop mission of the prologue... so probably the first 4v1 a player will play.

IMO, the games against the current AI can be misleading to what to expect when playing against other players. The AI always dodges the grappling coming from the front, instead most players are completely the opposite and they abuse a lot from using the melee in a smart way.

I know that I would play this game like this, I know that any other dedicated player could play this game too, but I know that my friend that play games maybe a few hours a week will play one game and won't return again if he is more time dead than alive.
Its easy to die in a large number of games. And even more so to have a greater death to kill ratio. Dying is part of the experience in my opinion. So if your saying its what constantly kills you that raises a problem in a game. Tell me what could do so without reasonable cause? The few things i can think of that would do so is hackers or environmental bugs within the game. if a seasoned player is out playing you or your friend, what's wrong with grouping up on him?

Also, I would like to know what games your friend would show interest in, if you both are okay with this. If he plays a video game for what I'm assuming would at least be 1 out of the 7 days in a week, why would he show interest in any game that would require his Patience and time? Why would a game like this stop him from having fun without his Patience and time committed to the game?

And that first mission you speak of, I'm guessing you mean the mission rescuing lycus yes? In my experience it depends on the person. During that mission, if I lost it was because lycus wasn't protected in the first part of the mission, or my team died to many times in the last part of the mission. I also listen to the pilot throughout the mission, he tells you the objective and when the objective is being compromised or when the enemy spawns. But thinking about it now, maybe he wasn't as helpful to everyone else relative to myself.

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Ebisu_rkz

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Re: New Players not ready for Antagonist?
Reply #9 on: June 14, 2017, 02:36:47 AM
Its easy to die in a large number of games. And even more so to have a greater death to kill ratio. Dying is part of the experience in my opinion. So if your saying its what constantly kills you that raises a problem in a game. Tell me what could do so without reasonable cause? The few things i can think of that would do so is hackers or environmental bugs within the game. if a seasoned player is out playing you or your friend, what's wrong with grouping up on him?

I know that in most games you can have more deaths than kills. It's not about that. I am not trying to enter the debate of pro vs noob players or raider vs antagonist.

What I am trying to say is that the first mission for the new players will be the one that they have to save lycus.

  • They need to defend lycus
  • They need to kill the engineers
  • They need to survive the antagonist
  • They need to learn the points from above
  • They need to learn the game mechanics, mostly the melee system
  • They have to do that before lycus die

All that IMO is too much for a new player.

That map is really small, you are attacked from different places, surviving the minions is already harder than other maps, and mixing the antagonist in there does not help at all.

The antagonist will probably know your position, making it easy to find and kill you as the map is really small.

There is very little room to learn how to play the game if you start dying a lot.

For example, if you would change that map for the next zone or the first zone of the second mission, IMO, would be easier for a new player. The map is bigger, you don't have a timer (lycus HP), easier to hide undercover, easier to see incoming enemies (the flying ship). They are more friendly to newcomers.

The worst is that you can lose that mission really fast without understanding exactly why you failed or what happened.


Also, I would like to know what games your friend would show interest in, if you both are okay with this. If he plays a video game for what I'm assuming would at least be 1 out of the 7 days in a week, why would he show interest in any game that would require his Patience and time? Why would a game like this stop him from having fun without his Patience and time committed to the game?

The game more similar like this would be ME MP tbh, and LoL or Gw2 as the only ones with pvp.

In my case, I played more coop shooters like warframe and more typical symetric cover shoters and asymetric shooters. But there are times I want to have fun with some friends.

I already explained it before, it's not bad to learn to play. But its bad if they are like "Fuck, I don't even have time to kill 2 minions/know where I have to go before he kills me", and I think that this is dangerous for casual players, In some games like LoL when you are new you can try to play defensively, in this game you can't do that against an antogonist, but it's easier in a bigger map with more useful covers.

BTW, I really think that this game need casual players, most pvp oriented players will want to play as antagonist, as it is the end-game of this game and his role is only PvP and killing other players. If you don't have a bunch of people playing as raiders there won't be matchs.

And that first mission you speak of, I'm guessing you mean the mission rescuing lycus yes? In my experience it depends on the person. During that mission, if I lost it was because lycus wasn't protected in the first part of the mission, or my team died to many times in the last part of the mission. I also listen to the pilot throughout the mission, he tells you the objective and when the objective is being compromised or when the enemy spawns. But thinking about it now, maybe he wasn't as helpful to everyone else relative to myself.

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Yes that mission, that is why I say that this mission being the first maybe can give the impresion that the game is harder than actually is.

I didn't know he warned you about the spawns, I will listen more next beta. I listened to him about the engineers.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 02:39:24 AM by Ebisu_rkz »

Glenn777

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Re: New Players not ready for Antagonist?
Reply #10 on: June 14, 2017, 05:08:41 AM


Its easy to die in a large number of games. And even more so to have a greater death to kill ratio. Dying is part of the experience in my opinion. So if your saying its what constantly kills you that raises a problem in a game. Tell me what could do so without reasonable cause? The few things i can think of that would do so is hackers or environmental bugs within the game. if a seasoned player is out playing you or your friend, what's wrong with grouping up on him?

I know that in most games you can have more deaths than kills. It's not about that. I am not trying to enter the debate of pro vs noob players or raider vs antagonist.

What I am trying to say is that the first mission for the new players will be the one that they have to save lycus.

  • They need to defend lycus
  • They need to kill the engineers
  • They need to survive the antagonist
  • They need to learn the points from above
  • They need to learn the game mechanics, mostly the melee system
  • They have to do that before lycus die

All that IMO is too much for a new player.

That map is really small, you are attacked from different places, surviving the minions is already harder than other maps, and mixing the antagonist in there does not help at all.

The antagonist will probably know your position, making it easy to find and kill you as the map is really small.

There is very little room to learn how to play the game if you start dying a lot.

For example, if you would change that map for the next zone or the first zone of the second mission, IMO, would be easier for a new player. The map is bigger, you don't have a timer (lycus HP), easier to hide undercover, easier to see incoming enemies (the flying ship). They are more friendly to newcomers.

The worst is that you can lose that mission really fast without understanding exactly why you failed or what happened.


Also, I would like to know what games your friend would show interest in, if you both are okay with this. If he plays a video game for what I'm assuming would at least be 1 out of the 7 days in a week, why would he show interest in any game that would require his Patience and time? Why would a game like this stop him from having fun without his Patience and time committed to the game?

The game more similar like this would be ME MP tbh, and LoL or Gw2 as the only ones with pvp.

In my case, I played more coop shooters like warframe and more typical symetric cover shoters and asymetric shooters. But there are times I want to have fun with some friends.

I already explained it before, it's not bad to learn to play. But its bad if they are like "Fuck, I don't even have time to kill 2 minions/know where I have to go before he kills me", and I think that this is dangerous for casual players, In some games like LoL when you are new you can try to play defensively, in this game you can't do that against an antogonist, but it's easier in a bigger map with more useful covers.

BTW, I really think that this game need casual players, most pvp oriented players will want to play as antagonist, as it is the end-game of this game and his role is only PvP and killing other players. If you don't have a bunch of people playing as raiders there won't be matchs.

And that first mission you speak of, I'm guessing you mean the mission rescuing lycus yes? In my experience it depends on the person. During that mission, if I lost it was because lycus wasn't protected in the first part of the mission, or my team died to many times in the last part of the mission. I also listen to the pilot throughout the mission, he tells you the objective and when the objective is being compromised or when the enemy spawns. But thinking about it now, maybe he wasn't as helpful to everyone else relative to myself.

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Yes that mission, that is why I say that this mission being the first maybe can give the impresion that the game is harder than actually is.

I didn't know he warned you about the spawns, I will listen more next beta. I listened to him about the engineers.

I assume you understand there is another mission these new players can play before or after the lycus mission. I will also assume you know that antagonists have a chance to appear in a mission. So if a new player didn't have enough time to hear the pilot telling him/her what's happening or to get the three simple CQC button layouts down, or to gain more comfort in what maybe seen as a confined space, or even playing a rescue mission with complications, Hopefully, they didn't quit after the five minutes they played so they can play the next game or and read the guide. We all know there is enough time to do that at least.

Also, I didn't ask for games similar to raiders. What i am asking is what good games out there is casual player oriented? Or what games will he play that meets his interest? That is my question.

Is running and shooting not a defensive play style? is flanking and ganking not a better play against one antagonist that already knows where you are for various reasons? Where is this "noobs" team?
Why are "noobs" so worried about getting kills when its not the objective to kill the minions? What good will come from changing an entire map to bigger spaces and more shielding so that casual players can die less to a mission they don't understand? Why vilify antagonists and "pros" alike? Like the raiders, antagonists have a mission of there own. stopping you. So why should the "noob" raider have environmental advantages over the antagonist because he\she is lacking the exp. Or doesn't play as much? I started playing three weeks ago, i don't find the game this hard to comprehend.

And more casual players or any type of player should play this game. I agree with you. But how long will a casual person play if they like the game anyway? I also agree there should be more game modes for the end game or for players to get better, but I feel a practice mode is a waste of space. Why practice on an AI dummy when an actual player and AI within missions will be unpredictable and a lot more overwhelming? This is my meaning.

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TehMud

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Re: New Players not ready for Antagonist?
Reply #11 on: June 14, 2017, 05:56:27 AM
I get your point.

What I was getting at is I think there should be more info in-game on what an Antagonist is and how they work, as alot of players may never even try to play as one and won't understand what they can really do. 

At the core though I think it may also be that we don't have much communication yet beyond basic emotes, so it can be hard to show people where to go or let them know the Antagonist is behind us. We'll see.

Either way I love the Antagonist concept.

Glenn777

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Re: New Players not ready for Antagonist?
Reply #12 on: June 14, 2017, 06:52:40 AM


Its easy to die in a large number of games. And even more so to have a greater death to kill ratio. Dying is part of the experience in my opinion. So if your saying its what constantly kills you that raises a problem in a game. Tell me what could do so without reasonable cause? The few things i can think of that would do so is hackers or environmental bugs within the game. if a seasoned player is out playing you or your friend, what's wrong with grouping up on him?

I know that in most games you can have more deaths than kills. It's not about that. I am not trying to enter the debate of pro vs noob players or raider vs antagonist.

What I am trying to say is that the first mission for the new players will be the one that they have to save lycus.

  • They need to defend lycus
  • They need to kill the engineers
  • They need to survive the antagonist
  • They need to learn the points from above
  • They need to learn the game mechanics, mostly the melee system
  • They have to do that before lycus die

All that IMO is too much for a new player.

That map is really small, you are attacked from different places, surviving the minions is already harder than other maps, and mixing the antagonist in there does not help at all.

The antagonist will probably know your position, making it easy to find and kill you as the map is really small.

There is very little room to learn how to play the game if you start dying a lot.

For example, if you would change that map for the next zone or the first zone of the second mission, IMO, would be easier for a new player. The map is bigger, you don't have a timer (lycus HP), easier to hide undercover, easier to see incoming enemies (the flying ship). They are more friendly to newcomers.

The worst is that you can lose that mission really fast without understanding exactly why you failed or what happened.


Also, I would like to know what games your friend would show interest in, if you both are okay with this. If he plays a video game for what I'm assuming would at least be 1 out of the 7 days in a week, why would he show interest in any game that would require his Patience and time? Why would a game like this stop him from having fun without his Patience and time committed to the game?

The game more similar like this would be ME MP tbh, and LoL or Gw2 as the only ones with pvp.

In my case, I played more coop shooters like warframe and more typical symetric cover shoters and asymetric shooters. But there are times I want to have fun with some friends.

I already explained it before, it's not bad to learn to play. But its bad if they are like "Fuck, I don't even have time to kill 2 minions/know where I have to go before he kills me", and I think that this is dangerous for casual players, In some games like LoL when you are new you can try to play defensively, in this game you can't do that against an antogonist, but it's easier in a bigger map with more useful covers.

BTW, I really think that this game need casual players, most pvp oriented players will want to play as antagonist, as it is the end-game of this game and his role is only PvP and killing other players. If you don't have a bunch of people playing as raiders there won't be matchs.

And that first mission you speak of, I'm guessing you mean the mission rescuing lycus yes? In my experience it depends on the person. During that mission, if I lost it was because lycus wasn't protected in the first part of the mission, or my team died to many times in the last part of the mission. I also listen to the pilot throughout the mission, he tells you the objective and when the objective is being compromised or when the enemy spawns. But thinking about it now, maybe he wasn't as helpful to everyone else relative to myself.

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Yes that mission, that is why I say that this mission being the first maybe can give the impresion that the game is harder than actually is.

I didn't know he warned you about the spawns, I will listen more next beta. I listened to him about the engineers.

Defending lycus, and killing engineers, while keeping yourself and your team alive. This describes a rescue mission in my opinion. Learning the three basic CQC button mechanics shouldn't be that hard if they read the guide and fight Ali. Without these, you will die, lycus will die, and the mission is failed. So Why is a rescue mission to much to comprehend?  Like the raiders the antagonist has a job to do as well. Stopping you and your team from progressing. So working together to put the antagonist at a disadvantage by ganking, flanking, or even leading him to another player by running away is an advantage you have against him/ her. The antagonist will know where you are at all times but he/she can't fight two players at once. And in my experience the map is fine the way it is. it has two levels with ample room and quite a few ways to alternate between floors. So why should a novice have environmental advantages over the antagonist because the antagonist has more experience? Why can't the casual player stay long enough to play a different mission? How would a larger map with bigger and more abundant cover help the novice? How would this fit into the setting of the mission?

let me rephrase my question about yuselessend. What good video games are casual oriented? Or what games will he play that interests him? Also, why would a casual worry about killing minions when minions are not the objective unless they are out of ammo? Why does the novice not know what to do when the pilot explains the situation? Is playing as a group or grouping up not defense? What points from above? I was not asking for games similar to raiders.(sorry if this reads off as rude. That was not my intention.)

Although I do agree with you, we need more people playing and more game modes. But in my opinion, a practice mode will be useless. Why practice on an AI dummy if regular AI and players are far less predictable? And what will keep a casual player playing if he/she barely plays videogames anyway?

And to make Sure I'm not misleading. I am a beta player, nothing more. I am not a dev nor a creator.

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Glenn777

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Re: New Players not ready for Antagonist?
Reply #13 on: June 14, 2017, 07:22:01 AM


I get your point.

What I was getting at is I think there should be more info in-game on what an Antagonist is and how they work, as alot of players may never even try to play as one and won't understand what they can really do. 

At the core though I think it may also be that we don't have much communication yet beyond basic emotes, so it can be hard to show people where to go or let them know the Antagonist is behind us. We'll see.

Either way I love the Antagonist concept.

I understand and agree with you. Unfortunately it is a high possibility that players will never cooperate with each other especially if there aren't any tactical or strategic commands to use. But  personally, I use a mic to at least give helpful advice to others I see having a hard time or those who took the time to listen. Either way, I in joy playing the game as well.





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Ebisu_rkz

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Re: New Players not ready for Antagonist?
Reply #14 on: June 15, 2017, 01:41:16 AM
I get your point.

What I was getting at is I think there should be more info in-game on what an Antagonist is and how they work, as alot of players may never even try to play as one and won't understand what they can really do. 

At the core though I think it may also be that we don't have much communication yet beyond basic emotes, so it can be hard to show people where to go or let them know the Antagonist is behind us. We'll see.

Either way I love the Antagonist concept.

Sorry then, I misunderstood the thread. Yes, I agree with you. At least, I see the antagonist mode more for experienced players and the only end-game. No rewards, tablescore, token reward from tablescore. Harder role for newcomers.

I never though about that because I tried the game knowing what each game mode was, but yes, there need to be more info in game about each mode.


Defending lycus, and killing engineers, while keeping yourself and your team alive. This describes a rescue mission in my opinion. Learning the three basic CQC button mechanics shouldn't be that hard if they read the guide and fight Ali. Without these, you will die, lycus will die, and the mission is failed. So Why is a rescue mission to much to comprehend?  Like the raiders the antagonist has a job to do as well. Stopping you and your team from progressing. So working together to put the antagonist at a disadvantage by ganking, flanking, or even leading him to another player by running away is an advantage you have against him/ her. The antagonist will know where you are at all times but he/she can't fight two players at once. And in my experience the map is fine the way it is. it has two levels with ample room and quite a few ways to alternate between floors. So why should a novice have environmental advantages over the antagonist because the antagonist has more experience? Why can't the casual player stay long enough to play a different mission? How would a larger map with bigger and more abundant cover help the novice? How would this fit into the setting of the mission?

let me rephrase my question about yuselessend. What good video games are casual oriented? Or what games will he play that interests him? Also, why would a casual worry about killing minions when minions are not the objective unless they are out of ammo? Why does the novice not know what to do when the pilot explains the situation? Is playing as a group or grouping up not defense? What points from above? I was not asking for games similar to raiders.(sorry if this reads off as rude. That was not my intention.)

Although I do agree with you, we need more people playing and more game modes. But in my opinion, a practice mode will be useless. Why practice on an AI dummy if regular AI and players are far less predictable? And what will keep a casual player playing if he/she barely plays videogames anyway?

And to make Sure I'm not misleading. I am a beta player, nothing more. I am not a dev nor a creator.

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I don't want to keep discussing about something that was not the goal of this thread. So, I will try to be short.

Yes, it's a rescue mission.

I am not trying to vilify anyone Neither the pros nor the antagonist.

The only thing that I said is that from my point of view, it's not a good idea to throw a new player for the first game into that mission in that map and against an antagonist. That is all.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 01:46:08 AM by Ebisu_rkz »