Author Topic: HIVE ability "rework"  (Read 733 times)

NinMug

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HIVE ability "rework"
on: November 13, 2020, 09:59:31 AM
Suggestion title: HIVE ability "rework"

Suggestion type: Character changes

Suggestion description:
H.I.V.E.'s current ability is very flawed and doesn't provide good survivability. I propose "rework" of her ability. Instead of excess health it would be "superior shield". The idea is to make her ability not as extension of her basic health but additional health bar. Her 240 HP of excess health will work as impenetrable shield what can't be pierced and damage her normal health BUT all in game damage will registered towards "shield coating", meaning enemy must destroy her "shield coating" and only then proceed to damage normal health. Idea is to give HIVE some sort of "shield gate" so she would not be killed with one shot even with massive amount of health. As it would be shield, she will not receive head damage multiplier(headshot). In CQC it will work same as current ability BUT HIVE wont be wounded with one strike("one punch builds"). It always will be two shots/strikes to wound her no matter the damage: one for shield and one for health.
Example:
-HIVE turns on her ability with max "charge"
-Her normal health is 100 , "shield coating" gives her additional 240 HP
-Harec shoots her and deals more than 340 damage
-H.I.V.E.'s "shield coating" is destroyed but she still has her normal 100 HP

Suggestion reasoning:
H.I.V.E.'s current excess health does not provide enough survivability.
Her ability is outperformed in every way by Lycus shield , the character and ability that have same role and playstyle. Just minor increase in amount of excess health wont change current situation while significant increase would make her overtuned and frustrating to fight. With this "rework" she would be able to survive better and be more competitive.
"This is Lycus shield but better!"
No , its still have flaws:
-Can't be recharged while on move compare to Lycus shield.
-Can't be manually turned off.
-Less overall HP than Lycus shield.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2020, 10:04:17 AM by NinMug »

MSE_Laura

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Re: HIVE ability "rework"
Reply #1 on: November 27, 2020, 01:38:19 PM
Hello there, Nin'Mug!
I've read your feedback and your ideas are quite interesting! Thank you for putting so much effort into this post!

The thing about H.I.V.E is that she is a close-range character. Being part of the Wardog, she heals really fast,  besides having a special ability to increase her base health. She is basically quite good in what CQC concerns. "Shield coating" give her a more mid/long-range approach, being able both to endure snipers shot and CQC, which reminds me of the 5th council base characteristics. She would be probably the strongest character of the game (destroyer at a close range and quite unkillable on the mid-long range).

I'm concerned that that wouldn't be quite fair for the rest of the Raiders!

NinMug

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Re: HIVE ability "rework"
Reply #2 on: November 27, 2020, 08:29:58 PM
Hello Laura.
Thank you your time.

First and most important thing what i want to point out:
Im not interested in making HIVE overtuned / too strong.
My MMR is 58 and i judge her from more competive/high difficulty aspect.
Things what you point out is indeed true but its only is at low-mid MMR and difficilties.
She indeed  "30 MMR beast" and against new players she is very good but she fall flat at high MMR and skilled opponents because of
-Non existing range damage
-Long overall TTK(except charged Wasp)
-Not enough survivability
-Lack of tools and options to realize her strength(Shy is only option what allow to get close to enemy)

Her role and playstyle just not work due her specific nature at higher difficulties.
I dont want talk about damage since increasing damage would not be fair.
Most of character can deplete her ability health with just few shots(talents increasing ability health not helping a lot) , meaning most of time she cant even get close to enemy with full essence bar.
Add always stressed Wardog passive and lack of flanking options on most map and she is sitting duck.

My other proposition is introduce talent what work in simillar way as my rework suggestion but maybe with additional tweaks and balance.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2020, 08:35:21 PM by NinMug »

LarsX

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Re: HIVE ability "rework"
Reply #3 on: November 27, 2020, 08:47:49 PM
My MMR is 58 and i judge her from more competive/high difficulty aspect.
Things what you point out is indeed true but its only is at low-mid MMR and difficilties.
She indeed  "30 MMR beast" and against new players she is very good but she fall flat at high MMR and skilled opponents
It turns out that the problem is not in HIVE, but MMR ;)

NinMug

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Re: HIVE ability "rework"
Reply #4 on: November 28, 2020, 12:25:32 PM
My MMR is 58 and i judge her from more competive/high difficulty aspect.
Things what you point out is indeed true but its only is at low-mid MMR and difficilties.
She indeed  "30 MMR beast" and against new players she is very good but she fall flat at high MMR and skilled opponents
It turns out that the problem is not in HIVE, but MMR ;)

Fixing MMR would make her better in PVE but she still have fundamental flaws what make her poor PVP character.
She always was decent Raider and bad Antagonist.
As Antagonist she not have enough damage nor survivability to even trade with Raiders if they are good.
Her overall desigh is a trap and its extremely hard to balance.
My goal is find a way to make her more competitive while not overtuning her.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2020, 04:40:44 PM by NinMug »

NinMug

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Re: HIVE ability "rework"
Reply #5 on: November 28, 2020, 12:41:18 PM
HIVE is melee character who sacrifice everything else to be effective in one thing , CQC.
Problem is how easy to counter her and her overall lack of tools to respond to this counters.

There so much hard counters what not allow HIVE survive , not even win.
HIVE get completely shut down by
-Any Local
-Push-stagger weapons
-Area denial weapons
-Aleph bombs
-Maps and stages what not allow flanking or manoeuvres

All this make HIVE unviable most of time as Antagonist.
She is good Raider because there always entities what can be leeched for essence gain plus support from teammates.

LarsX

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Re: HIVE ability "rework"
Reply #6 on: December 02, 2020, 05:20:43 PM
HIVE is melee character who sacrifice everything else to be effective in one thing , CQC.
Problem is how easy to counter her and her overall lack of tools to respond to this counters.
Is that so?
I'm always having hard time dealing with HIVE.

Quote
There so much hard counters what not allow HIVE survive , not even win.
HIVE get completely shut down by
-Any Local
Doldren? Well... ok. Harec? Maybe.
But what about Shae and Iune?

Quote
-Maps and stages what not allow flanking or manoeuvres
Choosing a melee fighter on the map for a sniper and complaining? Seriously?

NinMug

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Re: HIVE ability "rework"
Reply #7 on: December 03, 2020, 05:15:13 AM
"Is that so? I'm always having hard time dealing with HIVE."
 For my 1500+ hours in ROTBP/SL when i see HIVE against me i never thought:
"Damn they picked HIVE , it would be tough match"
When i see HIVE pretty much always she is easy frag.
She is one of easiest characters to deal with no matter who you pick ,
just monitor where she is and dont allow her to get close , thats it.
There is no need to pick her when Lycus exist , same role and playstyle but overall better than her.

"Doldren? Well... ok. Harec? Maybe.
But what about Shae and Iune?"

Any Local counter her with ease , thanks to extremely good talents and damage.
340-500 hp is nothing for locals and can delete HIVE with no problem while HIVE only tool what allow her survive is Shy protective bubble.
And they can also easily beat HIVE in CQC thanks to talents again.

"Choosing a melee fighter on the map for a sniper and complaining? Seriously?"
There is only few stages in the game what allow HIVE to feel decent.
First stage of Breath of Hope(maze) and White Noise are only ones where she feel very good.
Other CQB maps and stages are bad for her due to poor spawns and objectives. Raiders can easily spawn camp her and rush objectives with ease.

"But all characters suffer from MMR , poor spawns and objectives!"
Yes all suffer , thing is if this issues will be addressed all characters will be indirectly buffed.
For example:
HIVE current "strength" is 5 out of 10 , other characters 6-7 out from 10.
After this issues will be fixed , HIVE would be 6 out of 10 while other characters would go 7-8(just example).
She have fundamental flaws what cant be fixed by skill and current talent roster is very lackluster.
She is pure CQC character in the "gun meta" state of game , plus add how  buggy and inconsistent CQC is(I dont think CQC will be ever fixed)

I'm not saying she is weakest character in game.
She is decent Raider but as Antagonist she is one of worst character you can pick.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2020, 05:07:44 AM by NinMug »

NinMug

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Re: HIVE ability "rework"
Reply #8 on: December 13, 2020, 03:46:05 PM
Game is overall become more gun/range oriented while CQC and brawling become just side addition.
Bringing a fists to a gunfight is not good and effective idea , HIVE whole desigh is to empower her fists but guns will dominate no matter what.

I already shared a lot of feedback/suggestions what can be done to make her better while not overtuning her but it seems MSE consider her perfect and extremely strong , while all veteran players i know agree she is mediocre or weak.
 
 

LarsX

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Re: HIVE ability "rework"
Reply #9 on: December 21, 2020, 08:40:54 AM
HIVE is overpowered and extremely strong. All players I know agree she needs to be nerfed ASAP!

NinMug

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Re: HIVE ability "rework"
Reply #10 on: December 21, 2020, 11:40:51 AM
HIVE is overpowered and extremely strong. All players I know agree she needs to be nerfed ASAP!
True , she is so powerful and broken , when people see her they just surrender. She is so tanky and leech is so unfair , people just cant beat her. 🤦
« Last Edit: December 21, 2020, 11:43:38 AM by NinMug »

NinMug

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Re: HIVE ability "rework"
Reply #11 on: December 22, 2020, 07:23:32 AM
Sad people cant understand what character full potential need to be judged by its effectiveness at highest difficulty and skill levels.

LarsX

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Re: HIVE ability "rework"
Reply #12 on: December 22, 2020, 05:43:34 PM
Sad people cant understand what character full potential need to be judged by its effectiveness at highest difficulty and skill levels.
Fortunately, we are not sad people and can easily understand how overpowered HIVE is.
When we see her we just run away. Every time.

NinMug

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Re: HIVE ability "rework"
Reply #13 on: December 23, 2020, 12:38:00 AM
Sad people cant understand what character full potential need to be judged by its effectiveness at highest difficulty and skill levels.
Fortunately, we are not sad people and can easily understand how overpowered HIVE is.
When we see her we just run away. Every time.
She is noobstomper and it seems she stomp you really hard if you think she is OP.
I dont see point to continue this conversation , just try to play at higher difficulties and against good players to understand how fundamentally weak she is.