Author Topic: Let's have a chat about Antagonist.  (Read 491 times)

zMalevolencEz

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Let's have a chat about Antagonist.
on: November 26, 2019, 08:28:42 PM
First things first, when is this going to become a priority?

The MMR balancing is awful. Multiple content creators as well as the community have blasted screen shots, VoDs and voices numerous times its effects on the health of the PvP side of the game. What once was an enjoyable game mode has become a meme at this point.

Regardless of level the antagonist CANNOT be the only challenge on the map. 4 max level players playing at 20% MMR after "balancing" is a joke. Regardless of skill or character choice they have nothing to shoot at but the Antagonist.

I have months of VoDs of both sides of this equation. LordDraco has been showing screen shots on Twitter tagging MSE examples of the "balancing".

Personally PVP lovers like myself don't enjoy playing Herec and other characters are becoming a hassle to even attempt. Turtling by the raiders with infinite ammo is becoming a meta. Even braindead players can just throw themselves at the objectives and Antagonist regardless of skill can't kill them fast enough or simply can't compete with being team shot by 4 people not being challenged.

I don't suggest making grunts terminators but the difficulty when an antagonist enters shot be high. Antagonist are no long respected or feared. Raiders actively emote/taunt Antagonist not in good fun but because they think 12% MMR and killing you in a 1v4 scenario is some type of accomplishment.

Wins as an antagonist are unfulfilling and leave me personally empty. No sense of accomplishment whatsoever. This wasnt always the case. No other game I have ever played PVP stresses me out and causes so much hate towards a specific game mode than this. Between MMR, bad host connections, CQC and buggy game mechanics this needs to be on the top of the priority list.

I do not want this game to fail and I have put loads of time and money into playing not regretting a minute of it. Sandbox and overall game health is more important than a roadmap.

TheNobleWolf

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Re: Let's have a chat about Antagonist.
Reply #1 on: November 27, 2019, 01:25:21 AM
To be honest I think their not really gonna do anything until Auerora Specters. Whatever that is is probably gonna supercharge antagonist.

The problem with that is the community hates Antagonist (personally it's the draw of the game for me so I antag alot) so once that comes out it will either be undertuned to avoid whining or overpowered and nerfed quickly but I have hope for it and hope it doesent come to that.

I've been posting it for the past few days cause I haven't played since before the infinite ammo update and have found Antagonist mode is in it's worse state right now.

My idea is to give Antagonist the shield Kuzman has in the mission 'In Shock' where you wont take shot damage and are melee invincible until it's down. This way a Raider just cant rush you unless they knock the shield down.

Give it a 5-10 second start of recharge after no damage to give the Raiders enough time to reach you if their playing smart.

All other 4v1 games give the 1 person buffs to compensate for being alone but this game doesent and relies on grunts to be effective which they cant since there undertuned badly.

1 more suggestion make purple tier players have to play on 40% MMR. No questions it's only fair otherwise give the shield buff and cater its protection based on individual player levels since we know they can do that now cause of the new update.

zMalevolencEz

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Re: Let's have a chat about Antagonist.
Reply #2 on: November 27, 2019, 09:37:48 PM
It's super dangerous to ignore the current status quo in favor of an update that may or may not correct the current issues. There is way to much evidence being presented to not act.

Like most multiplayer games that have a form of PVP keeping it healthy keeps players around. From the outside looking in I'm watching Evolve all over again.

While the PVE element is important it's your PVP players that will help you grow. Ignoring one in favor of another is bad for business. Look at games like Destiny/Fortnite/Overwatch etc. that have both sides of the equation. Fortnite gave up on its PVE for PVP and lost a chunk of original players. Overwatch kinda balances both and Destiny actively tries to balance both.

You want to grow the playerbase and make money PVP is a driving force. Just a PVE experience gets dull and boring regardless whether you like the 1v4 Antagonist mode or not.

Lehi

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Re: Let's have a chat about Antagonist.
Reply #3 on: November 29, 2019, 02:53:49 AM

I've been posting it for the past few days cause I haven't played since before the infinite ammo update and have found Antagonist mode is in it's worse state right now.

I doubt it. I rather think Antag is buffed because I do not have to find a chance of cqc kill to get ammo.


My idea is to give Antagonist the shield Kuzman has in the mission 'In Shock' where you wont take shot damage and are melee invincible until it's down. This way a Raider just cant rush you unless they knock the shield down.

All other 4v1 games give the 1 person buffs to compensate for being alone but this game doesent and relies on grunts to be effective which they cant since there undertuned badly.


MSE probably considers the buff to antag is the AIs. However, they are easily wiped in low difficulty game.

I like the shield buff idea. but I consider a trigger of the shield can be Aleph. This way, it gives more chance for raiders to scatter. Currently, it is very difficult for antag to kill raiders if they nest in one location. Like, weapon from the past, there is no reason for raiders to go after aleph in the map.

Balancing and tweaking of MMR/difficulty are endless job. It's time to find another approach to satisfy both parties.
I consider it is ok for antags to face challenge. However, currently, there is no space for creativity/tactics for antag to insert.

Derrin Errow

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Re: Let's have a chat about Antagonist.
Reply #4 on: December 02, 2019, 12:23:05 AM



[/quote]




My idea is to give Antagonist the shield Kuzman has in the mission 'In Shock' where you wont take shot damage and are melee invincible until it's down. This way a Raider just cant rush you unless they knock the shield down.

All other 4v1 games give the 1 person buffs to compensate for being alone but this game doesent and relies on grunts to be effective which they cant since there undertuned badly.

I actually like the Idea of the Antagonist Only abilities, make it where each faction has a unique blessing of Uras-Beherit, instead of a faction themed ability, to make Beherit more prominent. It should also take 1 aleph charge to activate the blessing. I'm not good at game balance, but I thought that these would be cool ideas for the blessings.

Beherit's Cunning (Locals): Vanish into another plane of existence, invisible and untouchable for a period of time. 

Beherit's Ferocity (Wardogs): Temporarily increase movement speed, fire rate, reload speed, and health regeneration speed.

Beherit's Strength (Hades): Temporarily gain a boost in Health and Melee damage

Beherit's Resilience (5th Council): Pretty much the shield idea just make it a green bubble shield with Beherit-themed effects


ScimitarSlice

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Re: Let's have a chat about Antagonist.
Reply #5 on: December 03, 2019, 03:40:55 PM
The forced random PvP is a joke.  R6Siege, SW Battlefront, Paladins, Overwatch, new call of duty and literally every other game I can think of have a co-op PvE mode where you can practice, have fun, and grind a bit in a less sweaty environment.  When you want to get sweaty you go to PvP.  If it wasn't forced, the antagonist wouldn't have to be undertuned.  Increase the rewards for PvP, decrease them for PvE, and get yourself a real game and real game commnunity going, otherwise see you later. 

TheBrentWoody

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Re: Let's have a chat about Antagonist.
Reply #6 on: December 04, 2019, 12:10:06 AM
Antag is the ENTIRE point of the game.  It's THE unique feature and style of this game.  Antag haters...*** out.  Hahah.  But seriously, matches with them are more interesting and fun. Matches without them are boring.  That's just how it is.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2019, 11:31:38 AM by MSE_TENKA »

Whitebleidd

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Re: Let's have a chat about Antagonist.
Reply #7 on: December 04, 2019, 08:04:28 PM
Antag is the ENTIRE point of the game.  It's THE unique feature and style of this game.  Antag haters...*** out.  Hahah.
I must have missed the ENTIRE point of the game for hundreds of hours then because I specifically played the game for its PVE/coop and enjoyed that aspect a lot.

But seriously, matches with them are more interesting and fun. Matches without them are boring.  That's just how it is.

Not unsurprising seeing pvp’ers with the mental and competitive maturity of a child spout completely subjective statements as true.

Let me try, but seriously matches with antagonists are not fun, boring, most times downright broken and a total waste of time. That’s just how it is…

zMalevolencEz

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Re: Let's have a chat about Antagonist.
Reply #8 on: December 06, 2019, 02:49:21 AM
Antag is the ENTIRE point of the game.  It's THE unique feature and style of this game.  Antag haters...*** out.  Hahah.  But seriously, matches with them are more interesting and fun. Matches without them are boring.  That's just how it is.

The only person to read the content of my post. Good job Brent. This isn't about the separation of PVP or PVE. It's not about adding/buffing Antagonist it's about restoring the orginal 4v1 aspect this game was built on.

Regardless of anyone's narrowminded interpretation this is a 4v1 PvPvE game, how you choose to play these elements are your choice. If coop is your thing good for you if its PvP then they got that covered to. The reason Antagonist matches can be "boring" or "downright shameful" has a lot to do with mission difficulty or lack there of when an antagonist is present. Not all antagonist are effective in playing the mode either. Those who are winning now will likely be winning regardless however even the guys who are successful notice and have been voice concern.

The whole purpose of this post is to inform MSE as well as people who enjoy the Antagonist mode that it currently in an unmanageable state and needs to be looked at a little closer.

Whitebleidd

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Re: Let's have a chat about Antagonist.
Reply #9 on: December 06, 2019, 05:00:41 AM
Antag is the ENTIRE point of the game.  It's THE unique feature and style of this game.  Antag haters...*** out.  Hahah.  But seriously, matches with them are more interesting and fun. Matches without them are boring.  That's just how it is.

The only person to read the content of my post. Good job Brent. This isn't about the separation of PVP or PVE. It's not about adding/buffing Antagonist it's about restoring the orginal 4v1 aspect this game was built on.

Regardless of anyone's narrowminded interpretation this is a 4v1 PvPvE game, how you choose to play these elements are your choice. If coop is your thing good for you if its PvP then they got that covered to. The reason Antagonist matches can be "boring" or "downright shameful" has a lot to do with mission difficulty or lack there of when an antagonist is present. Not all antagonist are effective in playing the mode either. Those who are winning now will likely be winning regardless however even the guys who are successful notice and have been voice concern.

The whole purpose of this post is to inform MSE as well as people who enjoy the Antagonist mode that it currently in an unmanageable state and needs to be looked at a little closer.

lol his post had nothing to do with the topic, all he did was declare his love of the antagonist system and then demand posters leave a thread from a public forum… and in such a toxic way it appears mods had to edit his post.
What you ask for imo cannot be achieved because of the changes that were made to aleph and ammo, infinite ammo could be seen as a bad idea from a mile away, and how it was going to break stuff for both raiders and antags.

What you describe sounds like MSE balancing things out so that antag win rate gets lower, which is healthy for the community as a whole, since they insist on not dividing pvp and pve. What they mayb should do in that case is change the grading system for antags, not have it rely on winning, have it grade antags based on performance alone (kills, damage done, objective delay, etc) regardless of if they won or lost, and make it possible for them to get 7-8 scores even with a loss.

Dividing PVP and PVE also enters again into your discussion as a valid point, since it would allow for fine tuning things specifically for PVP scenarios, maybe even more standardized stats for the AI on the antag side, raising the minimum threshold for their HP, damage and reaction times, making them more useful, since the game wouldn’t have to account for noobs, PVE players and lower mmrs.

TheBrentWoody

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Re: Let's have a chat about Antagonist.
Reply #10 on: December 09, 2019, 03:38:05 AM
Using "vulgar" language isn't necessarily toxic.  I was obviously being tongue in cheek, if you know me, which you do, but if you want to react to it as if I was serious, then you're free to leave. 

The Antag system is what makes this game this game, and not three dimensional contra.  Which I believe is a thing?  Isn't it a thing?  Or Payday.  Or any number of brawl/shooters.   The Antag system is a unique feature, and pretty much what draws all the people who stay and play the game.  With a few notable exceptions (Drow?  You, maybe?)     All matches are more fun with an Antag, from my perspective.  It is simply more interesting.  When you've pounded out every map on here two hundred and more times....the only thing that spices it up is having a player, even when the MMR is borked one way or another. 

I still enjoy antagging.  I'm just not able to get matches fast enough for my level of patience.  2/3 Hours queues is too much for me.

Balancing for PvP/PvE is pretty easy...create unique PvP damage profiles for the guns, so their PvE stats have nothing to do with what they do in PvP.  Very doable.  It'd just be applying armor uniquely to each gun, rather than to a player based on their level. 

ScimitarSlice

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Re: Let's have a chat about Antagonist.
Reply #11 on: December 11, 2019, 11:52:15 AM
Antag is the ENTIRE point of the game.  It's THE unique feature and style of this game.  Antag haters...*** out.  Hahah.  But seriously, matches with them are more interesting and fun. Matches without them are boring.  That's just how it is.

That is your subjective opinion.  And yes, I have *** out, whatever word you used.  I deleted like 6 months ago.  The PvP is sometimes fun, but horribly broken.  I really won't argue this as some games attract thousands and thousands of people from around the world to compete professionally, and when I played spaced lords I usually got teamed with the same 150 or so people over, and over, and over, and over - and obviously it's not a serious eSport.  Do you think the Devs designed the Alicia smoking daisy for kamikaze antagonist use?  Of course they didn't.   This game is so good it should be WAY more popular but MSE keeps making bad business choices. 

ScimitarSlice

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Re: Let's have a chat about Antagonist.
Reply #12 on: December 11, 2019, 11:55:59 AM
Using "vulgar" language isn't necessarily toxic.  I was obviously being tongue in cheek, if you know me, which you do, but if you want to react to it as if I was serious, then you're free to leave. 


I still enjoy antagging.  I'm just not able to get matches fast enough for my level of patience.  2/3 Hours queues is too much for me.


wtf?  You waited 3 hours for a game?!  Does this sound like a sustainable model to you?