Author Topic: Reasons for Optional PvP  (Read 678 times)

Level9Drow

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Reasons for Optional PvP
on: August 13, 2019, 09:57:31 AM
These are the reasons I feel the game should allow optional PvP:
1. Meta slave: You either play the characters you enjoy and if those characters you find fun aren't the ordained mete characters specifically tailored to that mission you will be at a disadvantage with an antag. So you really have fun if you happen to like one of the lower tier characters. You just have to play the same characters for certain missions because you never know when you'll get invaded.

2. MMR and match making. New players get shit on all the time by antags. And with Sudden Death there really isn't anything a higher level player can do if the antag chooses to just pick apart lower level players until they use up all your lives. I've been in so many games where I didn't die at all to antag but they won anyways. This feels horrible. This is really no fun at all. And frankly I don't want this game to be a baby sitting simulator.

3. Many people just don't like the PvP, at least not in its current state. If there is a few weapons that are overpowered, if the game balance is wrong, if there are certain characters that are just broken and MSE hasn't caught on yet then why should people have to suffer through these mistakes and oversights? If they had the option to PvP then they could choose to avoid it if it's currently not to their liking. Or they can, you know, stop playing? I'm sure that would be better for the game. At least if they can choose you still keep the players playing.

4. It's simply not rewarding for the Raiders. I could care less what rewards the antag gets, they CHOSE to invade others missions. You cannot fel sorry for them on principal. But Raiders really lose out when they get invaded. You DO NOT get more rewards for getting invaded. And you would have progressed much better without an invasion. If you win as a raider you are getting nothing more than you would have gotten anyways. Seems a waste of time for us.

5. It's not true PvP. Simply put, there is passive stats and forge levels. This means there will always bee a shadow of doubt as to why you lost or won. If your opponent was a tier 6 and you were a tier 1 then it;s obvious why you won and, at the very least, what contributed towards that win and that was passives and forge level. In if the inverse were true you would know that you were beaten because your opponent had more at their disposal to use against you. And saying they were more skilled is even worse. Sure give a skilled player even MORE inherent circumstantial advantage, that make it more fair? TRUE PvP has opponents who adhere to the same level of power.

6. Let players enjoy the game with their friends how they wish. Many people like PvP. And those people should play PvP together. Nothing wrong with that. Other people, however, despise it and would rather avoid it because they simply do not enjoy it. It has nothing to do with win lose. Some people may feel they don't want to take part in robbing others of their rewards. They don't want to feel they've wasted their time or to waste another persons time and progress. Not everyone enjoys it. Some people are peaceful minded people who just want to relax and have fun with friends and don't find griefing others fun.

7. Hasn't it been long enough? I mean, the game is going through a bit of turmoil right now with a lot of changes that not everyone likes. I doubt it could do all that much harm to have the option at this point. I mean, has the mandated model been working out so far?

Dr.Kuzie

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Re: Reasons for Optional PvP
Reply #1 on: August 13, 2019, 11:27:39 AM
If only they listen.

If only.

But same story same ending.

ScimitarSlice

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Re: Reasons for Optional PvP
Reply #2 on: August 13, 2019, 01:00:47 PM
These are the reasons I feel the game should allow optional PvP:
1. Meta slave: You either play the characters you enjoy and if those characters you find fun aren't the ordained mete characters specifically tailored to that mission you will be at a disadvantage with an antag. So you really have fun if you happen to like one of the lower tier characters. You just have to play the same characters for certain missions because you never know when you'll get invaded.

2. MMR and match making. New players get shit on all the time by antags. And with Sudden Death there really isn't anything a higher level player can do if the antag chooses to just pick apart lower level players until they use up all your lives. I've been in so many games where I didn't die at all to antag but they won anyways. This feels horrible. This is really no fun at all. And frankly I don't want this game to be a baby sitting simulator.

3. Many people just don't like the PvP, at least not in its current state. If there is a few weapons that are overpowered, if the game balance is wrong, if there are certain characters that are just broken and MSE hasn't caught on yet then why should people have to suffer through these mistakes and oversights? If they had the option to PvP then they could choose to avoid it if it's currently not to their liking. Or they can, you know, stop playing? I'm sure that would be better for the game. At least if they can choose you still keep the players playing.

4. It's simply not rewarding for the Raiders. I could care less what rewards the antag gets, they CHOSE to invade others missions. You cannot fel sorry for them on principal. But Raiders really lose out when they get invaded. You DO NOT get more rewards for getting invaded. And you would have progressed much better without an invasion. If you win as a raider you are getting nothing more than you would have gotten anyways. Seems a waste of time for us.

5. It's not true PvP. Simply put, there is passive stats and forge levels. This means there will always bee a shadow of doubt as to why you lost or won. If your opponent was a tier 6 and you were a tier 1 then it;s obvious why you won and, at the very least, what contributed towards that win and that was passives and forge level. In if the inverse were true you would know that you were beaten because your opponent had more at their disposal to use against you. And saying they were more skilled is even worse. Sure give a skilled player even MORE inherent circumstantial advantage, that make it more fair? TRUE PvP has opponents who adhere to the same level of power.

6. Let players enjoy the game with their friends how they wish. Many people like PvP. And those people should play PvP together. Nothing wrong with that. Other people, however, despise it and would rather avoid it because they simply do not enjoy it. It has nothing to do with win lose. Some people may feel they don't want to take part in robbing others of their rewards. They don't want to feel they've wasted their time or to waste another persons time and progress. Not everyone enjoys it. Some people are peaceful minded people who just want to relax and have fun with friends and don't find griefing others fun.

7. Hasn't it been long enough? I mean, the game is going through a bit of turmoil right now with a lot of changes that not everyone likes. I doubt it could do all that much harm to have the option at this point. I mean, has the mandated model been working out so far?

Meta-slave is a huge gripe for me.  I can't even play Lycus, the game mascot and coolest dude in the game, because there's just so many better choices (for me at least) and I'll never know if I get invaded.  Iune is my favorite character but I would only play her like 5% of the time, and I would regret it like 75% of the time.  Either there's an antag or I'm playing with dumbazzes who won't shoot the boss, And I have to kill the guardians with the sigh gun, which needs a freakin buff by the way.

Despite a very vocal and dedicated discord cabal, one merely has to look at how meager the streaming and streaming attention is for the game to know all is not well.  Maybe the game already has such a bad reputation by now that a re-haul wouldn't even help

Whitebleidd

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Re: Reasons for Optional PvP
Reply #3 on: August 13, 2019, 01:03:03 PM
Nice collection of great points that have been made over many posts (many of them downright irrefutable), a thread where the devs can have them readily available is always good.

Sadly, as Kuzie said, doubt they will listen, but since I’m betting most of us love the game, we continue to try like hopeful fools…

ScimitarSlice

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Re: Reasons for Optional PvP
Reply #4 on: August 13, 2019, 01:36:12 PM

MX_Just MX

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Re: Reasons for Optional PvP
Reply #5 on: August 13, 2019, 07:24:33 PM
6. Let players enjoy the game with their friends how they wish. Many people like PvP. And those people should play PvP together. Nothing wrong with that. Other people, however, despise it and would rather avoid it because they simply do not enjoy it. It has nothing to do with win lose. Some people may feel they don't want to take part in robbing others of their rewards. They don't want to feel they've wasted their time or to waste another persons time and progress. Not everyone enjoys it. Some people are peaceful minded people who just want to relax and have fun with friends and don't find griefing others fun.

I feel called out and I totally agree. And it's the reason I dont play antags and don't like the entire antag system at all. It waste raider's time unless idk the antag is really bad or the antag is peaceful antag. And I never felt good after I win as antags because it feels like i robbed their rewards and wasted their time. If it was optional..with some reworks(like, give raiders more rewards than this after raiders lose against antag) I think I will try antags again..in optional pvp

(english isn't my first language btw)
« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 07:27:16 PM by MX_Just MX »

Lehi

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Re: Reasons for Optional PvP
Reply #6 on: August 14, 2019, 06:33:44 AM
Feeling accomplished to see Level's long post after eating his team raw and chew their bones last night. My activity does not go in vain and effectively reduce newbies.

Dude, what do you mean by "true pvp"? pvp is pvp whether balanced or not.


To me, I am ok with pvp optional. Whatever the concept is, the system cannot accommodate it because of unstable network. I rather wants MSE to develop and nurture new players. Player's learning curve cannot catch up at this point. Occasional hard games with antag presence can ruin the newbie's experience but rarely strengthen by the challenge.
(The games grab my heart from the start, but this is the minority, telling from many salty posts. Newbies should be nurtured kindly.)

I see MSE tried a lot, training mode, lowering the cap, comm system, give strong guns for the starting/inexpencive characters, sudden death. From my perspective, i cannot know whether the player base grows. I still see people quitting when I join as an antag.

For now, MSE better put the pvp optional so the fan base to build up. Yea, the antags may quit the game, but MSE can earn the remaining 4/5.

As Kuzzy says in the other post, we do not have big fan base like COD, that can afford to lose newbies by rewarding veterans. Without newbies, the game is going to die in anyway.

Make the pvp optional, increase more game modes. Randomize the cards and perks like Destiny and Borderlands so people can grind. Reward less non-pvp games, but reward pvp games. Develop the system so people want to contineu rather quitting in the middle of the game.

Level9Drow

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Re: Reasons for Optional PvP
Reply #7 on: August 14, 2019, 06:54:03 AM
Yea, I'm not sure how they are ok with new players leaving because of it. I guess they're that dedicated to chasing away players.

Butterbuff

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Re: Reasons for Optional PvP
Reply #8 on: August 14, 2019, 07:51:45 AM
It’s saddening  how we keep saying things like, “give more gold for missions done well, let new players play with new players, get rid of the requirement of a high player level to get certain characters, improve the card system.” To the devs and they reworked the whole system and accomplished nothing like they moved one step forward and one step back at the same time Doing a split and ruining their pants (metaphor for game) in the process. hopefully they can to sew it in time

Dr.Kuzie

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Re: Reasons for Optional PvP
Reply #9 on: August 14, 2019, 09:41:46 AM
Problem is, September is coming, new games: Borderlands 3, Gears 5, some indies... In october the new COD, december, new DOOM... Those games are heavy fighters, they can suck players like a vacuum. The newbies interest is gonna disappear because "big franchises games."

How can Spacelords retain players? With weapon skins? A Broken combat system? High ping martches? Antagonist system? The random Card system?

Being honest, with a lot of Coop game experiences so close, Spacelords is going to bleed the pve lovers, because MSE hasn't show any kindness towards them...

Just look ay Gears 5, a complete dungeon crawler coop mode that looks outstanding.

I really don't think optional PvP is going to save Spacelords. Too late. Too much pride.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 09:43:42 AM by Dr.Kuzie »

ScimitarSlice

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Re: Reasons for Optional PvP
Reply #10 on: August 14, 2019, 12:08:21 PM
Overwatch just implemented a 2-2-2 role lock (tank, healer, dps).  It feels great already and it's only going to get better.  And overwatch has a training mode where you can co-op against A.I.  If you want an game that is very intelligent and exciting yet won't make your hair turn white as you pull it all out, I'd reccomend it.

I want the spacelords playerbase and community to grow.  MSE and the Discord cabal seem stalwart in not doing anything that could help that occur.  Do I love the game more then they do?

@Lehi compare who is steaming/watching spacelords to paladins and warframe.  Then compare that to fortnite or overwatch.  Spacelords barely has a pulse, despite being a better (when ping and matchmaking is not horrible)  than all of them. 
« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 12:11:00 PM by ScimitarSlice »

SergeyKosinskiy

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Re: Reasons for Optional PvP
Reply #11 on: August 14, 2019, 01:17:40 PM
And then compare it to one year ago. Both number of streamers and number of ppl who watch grow over time.

Also i have another idea why make it optional? Better to make it pure pvp. No game without antag. Then we can balance weapons and other stuff accordingly to idea that each game will have pvp elements in it. All popular games with big following are pvp ones.

ScimitarSlice

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Re: Reasons for Optional PvP
Reply #12 on: August 14, 2019, 01:29:00 PM
And then compare it to one year ago. Both number of streamers and number of ppl who watch grow over time.

Also i have another idea why make it optional? Better to make it pure pvp. No game without antag. Then we can balance weapons and other stuff accordingly to idea that each game will have pvp elements in it. All popular games with big following are pvp ones.

"And then compare it to one year ago. Both number of streamers and number of ppl who watch grow over time."


BS.  I checked on sunday afternoon (PS4) and was 2 people streaming with a total of 5 people watching.  Compare that to paladins that has in the 3 figures.  The common german people thought they were winning the war even up till 1945.  Get my point?

"All popular games with big following are pvp ones."
1. that's not even true.
2. spacelords is not PvP.  It's PvPvE with a dysfunctional MMR system.

SergeyKosinskiy

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Re: Reasons for Optional PvP
Reply #13 on: August 14, 2019, 03:04:41 PM
And again i started playing and at same time started watched twitch. There was quan, sky-something and thats about it. Now in eu evening there like at least 20ppl watching
Then it should become pvp. With ads. And sure not all, but if we look at top of what is streamed it will be mostly pvp games.

ScimitarSlice

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Re: Reasons for Optional PvP
Reply #14 on: August 14, 2019, 05:55:31 PM
I  like the pure PvP idea but only if I can swap characters mid match like overwatch.  If we need a sniper and baby harec is running into mobs brawling  like jean claude van damn, I want to be able to switch to another long range character.  It will make 'carrying' more reliable, which the game absolutely needs.