Author Topic: Match difficulty  (Read 5607 times)

Marcus4471

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Match difficulty
on: July 22, 2019, 01:12:37 PM
This post is really pointing out the ignorance of a fellow player who is incapable of understanding match difficulty.

It was a previous discussion on higher levels boosting up the mission difficulty who somehow, believed that a 38% match rating isn't hard. I would like to confirm with MSE that a match difficulty of 38% would mean that the enemy are doing 38% more weapon damage?

I just lost 'Weapon from the Past' rescuing the Aleph Sphere. The mission difficulty was 43% and all I can say was it was an absolute nightmare. I played with two T1 R1 players and a T1 R4 player. I'm a T1 R3. The enemy were ripping my team to pieces. Worse, this was my Treasure Pot first game of the day and instead of taking 36%+ of gold and faction, I only won 1/3rd of the overall pot.

43% difficulty is a nightmare. As stated, the enemy completely wiped us out. Even if you went into wounded with just one wardog firing at you, you were dead. We made it to the last altar, but sudden death killed us. I died about 6 times overall, so wasn't too bothered, but it was incredibly hard to say the least.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2019, 01:51:32 PM by Marcus4471 »

sonofoz

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Re: Match difficulty
Reply #1 on: July 22, 2019, 02:20:39 PM
there is a lot of things that change with higer mmr...
not only damage.

firing rate, pushback effects, reaction time, absurd cheating behavior and monster's health too (between others), but even gameplay effect :
for example, in short fused, with low mmr, elites on canon tank don't really shoot at you, whereas the higer the mmr, the more efficiently they will destroys you with canon explosions as soon as you are in sight making it a nightmare to progress toward them, and if i remember well, the time you have before the canister explode is also shorten, (but i won't bet my head on it, that was just a feeling i had on some plays and i never tried to confirm).

so there is a lot of "gameplay" changes made by mmr in various missions.

but that's not an excuse to quit as you did, letting low lvl players at their fate while you were the first reason of this mmr.

there is 2 kinds of gamers : the one who quits and wait for a team to carry them, and the one who fight even if they lose or have to carry others. ;)



but as the fellow player you are refering to said, the problem are more the difficulty pick who occured sometimes( whatever the mmr of the mission is), making the mission difficulty insanely absurd, than the mmr himself.

(and it was already the case before sooma. i said that cause i think he mentionned it appeared after sooma update, but i can assure you these strange difficulty picks were already existing before)
« Last Edit: July 23, 2019, 01:06:32 PM by sonofoz »

Marcus4471

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Re: Match difficulty
Reply #2 on: July 22, 2019, 02:38:13 PM
.......
but that's not an excuse to quit as you did, letting low lvl players at their fate while you were the first reason of this mmr.

there is 2 kinds of gamers : the one who quits and wait for a team to carry them, and the one who fight even if they lose or have to carry others. ;)
This is irrelevant to the OP sonofoz. This was addressed in another post. However, seeing as you brought it up, if I, the only T1 player in the game, at R3 is struggling against the enemy at a 38% MMR, how on earth are T2, R6 and unranked players doing? The answer is they're not, which means that there's a low chance of surviving in many missions, meaning that a surrender is the only viable option, which if it isn't taken, then in my opinion, it's perfectly understandable why people then quit.

sonofoz, I respect your fighting spirit, I really do, but this is a game. It's not real life. It's pixels on a screen where ultimately every choice you make, playing this game is yours. If people don't want to play and choose to quit, that's entirely their prerogative to do so. There's a big difference to quitting as a pixel on a computer screen or playing in a soccer team and then saying "screw this, I'm off down to the pub", to leave your team one man down. There are video games and there's reality. Don't confuse the two as the same.

sonofoz

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Re: Match difficulty
Reply #3 on: July 22, 2019, 03:05:15 PM
Quote
This is irrelevant to the OP sonofoz. This was addressed in another post.
your whole topic is adressed to another topic, so... --'


Quote
if I, the only T1 player in the game, at R3 is struggling against the enemy at a 38% MMR, how on earth are T2, R6 and unranked players doing?

marcus, i am *3, (so i guess t1r3) usually my mmr float between 45 and 50 and each day, i do A LOT of mission with 3 low lvl players (-65) in the team, and even sometimes with antag in it. and the big majority of these missions are won.

so i affirm that it is absolutly possible for non selfish coward quitters players.

just yesterday i won a match on the first mission of hades division (don't know its name in english) with a 6rank players alone with me while the too others had quit because it was toooo haaaard (or too long) you know =)
and yes of course i had to carry the mission but nonetheless he did great job ( and i certainly couldn't have done it all alone), at least because he tried and fight against insane AI for his lvl.
but we made it, and he had his weapons BP and the others had to wait 30mn that we finished and won nothing.
and i was glad for him.

the only reason i see where quitting could be a good thing is if you are losing lives again and again and you think that the team will have better chances to win without you.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2019, 05:22:44 AM by sonofoz »

Angeles2099

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Re: Match difficulty
Reply #4 on: July 22, 2019, 04:52:53 PM
I think Marcus might Have a point though. I was brought down for one reason or another to 38-39% and in a match with lower tiers than myself the AI were honest to god were dominating to a degree that question if this was supposed to be acceptable.

Granted a brought the wrong character and gun to be carrying the team but regardless a single AI brought me a player with MAX stats to wounded and damn near killed me but that was just a single grunt.

I remember when anything past 50-60% began to reach those levels of difficulties but now High-end AI are being set on MMR 39%? what the heck? That compounding with the Hosting Bug is a bit much for any mission.

Tekato

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Re: Match difficulty
Reply #5 on: July 22, 2019, 05:49:02 PM
Same, I had a really scary low blow match where at the end I had to sacrifice myself so the iune could extract. The wardogs just kept spawning faster than I could kill them all and swarmed the extraction point. It makes no sense for there to be these many ads in a 34% difficulty. I don't mind the difficulty myself but I doubt the low levels in that match were having a good time.

Placelord

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Re: Match difficulty
Reply #6 on: July 22, 2019, 07:59:27 PM
Here are some basic videogame combat guidelines in case MSE is unaware.

1. Shotguns are not long range weapons. They should not be able to reach past a certain distance. Shotguns have spread so the shot damage and force is reduced significantly proportional to the distance from it's origin.

2. If a player is engaging a group of common enemies and is outnumbered by a ratio of at least 4-1; no single enemy should have the capability to defeat the player in 3 actions or less.

3. Under no circumstances should any enemy in a shooter game have the ability to fire continuously without interruption.

4. If your combat is primarily focused on counter based melee, optimization and latency reduction needs to be the top priority.

5. Automatic weapons sacrifice damage and accuracy for rate of fire. This is a problem I'm seeing the designers having trouble grasping. A weapon should not be able to have high accuracy, high damage, long range, and fast rate of fire in equal measure. Especially when you are out numbered and surrounded at all times.

6. In order for a team to effectively coordinate, they need common spacial reference points. IE "the antag is approaching from the East side of the map".

7. A player defeating an enemy should not have an above 90% chance immediately being punished. For example an elite grabbing a raider while he/she grapples an ad, or a raider being shot to death scrambling for drops after defeating an enemy.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2019, 08:17:43 PM by Placelord »

MeleeMaster

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Re: Match difficulty
Reply #7 on: July 22, 2019, 08:17:48 PM
This is irrelevant to the OP sonofoz. This was addressed in another post. However, seeing as you brought it up, if I, the only T1 player in the game, at R3 is struggling against the enemy at a 38% MMR, how on earth are T2, R6 and unranked players doing? The answer is they're not, which means that there's a low chance of surviving in many missions, meaning that a surrender is the only viable option, which if it isn't taken, then in my opinion, it's perfectly understandable why people then quit.

If you give up you're getting a lower score anyway which means less rewards, if you fight you have the chance to increase your score and even win by some chance. A 7 is much better than a 4.

Before quitting a match or trying to give up, did you ever thought the people that are playing with you are trying to get a blueprint or are in their pot match? If they leave the mission they'll lose their chance for the day. I also get frustrated by low level players screwing my rewards but I'll still try to carry them to the end.

sonofoz, I respect your fighting spirit, I really do, but this is a game. It's not real life. It's pixels on a screen where ultimately every choice you make, playing this game is yours. If people don't want to play and choose to quit, that's entirely their prerogative to do so. There's a big difference to quitting as a pixel on a computer screen or playing in a soccer team and then saying "screw this, I'm off down to the pub", to leave your team one man down. There are video games and there's reality. Don't confuse the two as the same.

Ok, so if a rank 1 purple player gets in a group with you and two other unranked players then leaves in the start of the match because he didn't like the team composition or whatever, but his MMR scaled the difficulty to 70%, then it's fine for him to leave, right? It's just a game after all.

sonofoz

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Re: Match difficulty
Reply #8 on: July 23, 2019, 05:51:54 AM
Quote
I think Marcus might Have a point though.
yes but not really.
i think i had mentionned these AI problem in one of my first post. well maybe not.
anyway they're not related to mmr.

you can have missions with insane AI behavior on any mmr.
in my observation it seems to occur more often after "long" wining streak or when there is high reward for the mission, like BP for example.

and what tekato or you are describing occured AT LEAST once a day with me (on small game sessions)... and that from my day one.
so really you can believe me, it's not related to mmr.
(even if yes, of course, the higher the mmr the higher the difficulty.)

but these "difficulty picks" as another player called them are a different thing than usual mmr scalling and are a bigger problem to players (regardless of there lvl) than usual mmr.

with usual mmr scalling, high rank players can try to carry their team, and low rank still have chances to play.
when the "bug" occurs, your chances are really small regardless the rank of players. it's just non stop slaughtering who despise all the games rules.

(for examples foes can interrupt you with guns or else during your grab animation. not during deplacement. your grab animation. wich mean during the time your are being invicible... =)
and there is so much more non sens actions wich makes these missions totally pathetics to play.)

EDIT : i just finished one of these missions.
all experienced players. we each cared about others and saved lives of each other a lot of time. but... well...
grunts who can OS you with their shotguns while they are sniping you from the end of the map, applying an interrupting pushback of 5m, but who still attacks in packs of 8 (to be sure they can rape the whole team) and are individually harder to kill than cancer, elites who pack by 2 or 3 and so on...
the most amusing part was, playing doldren, i came under astral form behind a lonely elite. absolutly no other player around. and immediately when i reached punch length, he launched an orbital strike. ^^
i was under astral form for god sake... no one around except me... i took distances. wait it finished and come back after the strike, still in astral. guess what he did as soon i came close to him...?
yup. orbital strike again =)

a moment i had hope that we could make it. we had all our 12lives from our second batch and only 1.5 altar to defend.
but... nope. they send so much grunts and elites on the map at the same time that they litterally walk on us. they had surrounded the respawn point and was killing us as soon as we were respawning... we lost our 12 lives in maybe one or 2  minutes.
that was so cool. ^^

anyway. there is no fun nor "challenge" in these missions. they are just absurd.



Quote
Here are some basic videogame combat guidelines in case MSE is unaware.

1. Shotguns are not long range weapons. They should not be able to reach past a certain distance. Shotguns have spread so the shot damage and force is reduced significantly proportional to the distance from it's origin.

2. If a player is engaging a group of common enemies and is outnumbered by a ratio of at least 4-1; no single enemy should have the capability to defeat the player in 3 actions or less.

3. Under no circumstances should any enemy in a shooter game have the ability to fire continuously without interruption.

4. If your combat is primarily focused on counter based melee, optimization and latency reduction needs to be the top priority.

5. Automatic weapons sacrifice damage and accuracy for rate of fire. This is a problem I'm seeing the designers having trouble grasping. A weapon should not be able to have high accuracy, high damage, long range, and fast rate of fire in equal measure. Especially when you are out numbered and surrounded at all times.

6. In order for a team to effectively coordinate, they need common spacial reference points. IE "the antag is approaching from the East side of the map".

7. A player defeating an enemy should not have an above 90% chance immediately being punished. For example an elite grabbing a raider while he/she grapples an ad, or a raider being shot to death scrambling for drops after defeating an enemy.
I AGREE SOOO MUCH...!!!!!
« Last Edit: July 23, 2019, 08:24:24 AM by sonofoz »