Author Topic: Leveing the playing field  (Read 676 times)

LüB

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Re: Leveing the playing field
Reply #15 on: June 26, 2019, 07:10:58 AM
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How would a game survive on PVE alone you ask?
that's absolutly not what i said...
i said, this game has only 17 missions.

so don't be ridiculous, games like warframe, fallout or borderlands have tons of differents missions on differents maps, they are not comparable with this one...
right now, this game only take more than two days to finish because of the lvl requirement...
have you.....played warframe mate? I mean yeah, it has shit tons of nodes, but there aren't many actual levels with different win conditions, and maps in the game don't make enough of a significant difference. 17 missions is quite plentiful.
Even putting all this aside, most games in Spacelords is purely PvE and hardly anyone is crossing their fingers for an antag as the raider. So.....whatever that's keeping the game alive now, it's not the antag mode. So your premise is straight up untrue.

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yes.
i'd rather die against a good player or an overpowered equipement while i'm doing my best, than against a cheating AI who "predict" every single action i take.

when you lose you feel totally powerless, like you can do nothing cause the game counter every movement, pop direct in your ass, move, shoot or react at lightning speed, etc, etc.

and consequently when you win, you just feel like the game let you win.
uninteresting in both situations.

......Do you....hear yourself? When you think?
You understand your statement applies to every PvE game out there right? Just because the AI has the ability to predict and counter your every move doesn't mean they do.

sonofoz

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Re: Leveing the playing field
Reply #16 on: June 26, 2019, 08:31:45 AM
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have you.....played warframe mate?

indeed i do.
pretty frequently. valkyr forever <3 ^^
so i suggest everyon to go on that game, and all the game you mentionned by the way, play them, and see if you are showing bad faith or not here...


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Even putting all this aside, most games in Spacelords is purely PvE and hardly anyone is crossing their fingers for an antag as the raider. So.....whatever that's keeping the game alive now, it's not the antag mode. So your premise is straight up untrue.

i think you are making your feeling as rule.

as a matter of fact, i do enjoy confronting antag.
and usually i play counter antag characters.
because, no offense hey community, but it appears that 80% of players of this game are retarded children who can't adapt their characters to the mission they're gonna play (ending up with useless short range weapons against unreachable boss for exemple) or the possibility of the antag presence (forgivable for rank -65 and maybe 4, but not below) and then they come and cry here that antags are mean or harass their team to surrender...

so before crying against antags that are "so powerfull", learn to play correctly, stay grouped, adapt to the mission, and focus on reaching objective, or if antag are soooo strong, why don't you just play antag ? and then come back to give us your feedback.

that being said, i'm not really playing the game for the pve. i play the pve to be able to bash the head of antag (or raiders) more efficiently when i fall on them.

but yes, i don't deny that just grinding for new characters in pve can be a motivation too.


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Just because the AI has the ability to predict and counter your every move doesn't mean they do.

yes, but in this game it does...
and i'm not the only one telling it.  ;)
so either way, you're not playing the same game that we are.
wich explain why you think this game is exactly like an openworld one, like fallout or borderlands...

or, more certainly, i think we have our answer and you are just showing bad faith, so it's useless to argue with people like you.

so yes, you are right, there is absolutly no difference, between this game and marioworld. proof is we can jump in both !
they should definitely add some mushrooms. people like mushrooms. i'm sure they will stick to the game thanks to them.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2019, 02:54:35 PM by sonofoz »

MX_Just MX

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Re: Leveing the playing field
Reply #17 on: June 26, 2019, 12:21:13 PM
(inb4 I haven't studied how to speak english that much.)
I think I am off-topic on here. AND I think someone already said like this.

I don't like to play antags, making me feel guilty(You don't know someone on there just want to chillin with friends or want to have some pve/pvp match). Most times I like to play *against* antags tho, feels good when I assist teammates who's having struggle against them. But I feel it's really stressful to have antag entirely in match *randomly*. I know antags have stress stuffs of their own and I KNOW playing antags is not just easy win, still need to think what they should do(well, honestly. In some maps, it seems not that balanced.)

AND Making the antags optional(I think it's a good option though, adds more rewards(bonus rewards with another currency to buy skins maybe?) when you play against or as antags. Don't reduce rewards for pve players though.) could make the matchmaking time for antags take forever.

So my suggestion is rework the passive skills so low level antags or raiders have a chance to stand up against high level players and make antags system less stressful(to both, if possible). Like adds more rewards for have antags as Raiders and adds special features to antags or to both(antags seems like to gonna have it). I personally likes Quick invasion idea(it's on other thread!) by the way.

P.S(it's really long P.S ooooooo) Spacelords is still fun and feels speical with pure PvE, I can find fun things to do in PvE without PvP. Me? I like to play against AI on high difficulty, and trick AI with stress meter system(which I think it makes PVE feel special). Finding what characters and builds can be effective against Mobs and Elites. Or just chilling and messing around with friends. I can still have fun with in PvP, but I can't have chills unless I KNOW this match will be a PvP match.

Whitebleidd

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Re: Leveing the playing field
Reply #18 on: June 28, 2019, 08:21:27 AM
i said, this game has only 17 missions.

so don't be ridiculous, games like warframe, fallout or borderlands have tons of differents missions on differents maps, they are not comparable with this one...
This game has 17 UNIQUE missions (which is already more than Warframe, plus their executions is not as braindead), that combined with the more competent Ai, variety of raiders and weapons come together to provide a much better and more varied experience than Warframe, I got bored out of my mind with Warframe by the time I got a bit over 100h yet when it comes to raiders I am well over 1k+ hours and (other than antags wasting my time) I’m not bored yet, also since I have no interest in this games PVP, most of my time is ofc spent in PVE. The only thing Warframe has is more junk to grind for, but otherwise everything about the game is just copy pasta, and that goes double for its missions and maps.

without antag challenge, how much time will you play the game before getting bored ?

being crushed by stupid cheating AI is more repulsive than attractive to me.
i'm not sure people will stay more on the game with no antag system at all.
Basically this claim is entirely false because of how subjective it is, you get bored without antags, well I get bored with them, that’s why there should be at the very least 2 modes. ppl that like both (but just not all the time) can jump back and forth between them, there is literally no drawbacks and would in the long run, allow the population to grow, since players that don’t want the annoying PVP all the time, would be more likely to stay.

right now, this game only take more than two days to finish because of the lvl requirement...
Good luck with that, I would really like to see a person finish this game in 2 days… and if you are referring to just beating all missions, then that is not “finishing the game” not even close, since that is most certainly not the objective in this type of games.

I have suggested before that they should add a bonus option to select an Antag invasion. Add that to the mission Select screen as an option. If you select that box, you get a 2x reward bonus. Don't want an Antag? Cut the rewards. Add additional bonuses after 5,10,15 Antag queues in a row.
If they add a bit of a reward multiplier for PVP queue, that could be fine (although 2x is too much, should be closer to something like 1.2-1.5x), as long as they don’t lock unique content to PVP, such as weapons, cosmetics and such, and limit it to only slightly increased currency/xp.

They should generally focus more on content and not on stupidities like limited ammo drops, awful aleph drops, sudden death timers, removing player's levels, shortening wounded states, …
Man, they got so many things wrong the last few updates, it's unbelievable!
Sigh… can’t agree more, it’s downright painful to watch…

sonofoz

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Re: Leveing the playing field
Reply #19 on: June 28, 2019, 10:29:53 AM
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This game has 17 UNIQUE missions

yeah, so ? still ONLY 17 missions you can finish in two day without lvl cap (probably one day if you make long gaming session...) and after that you just start doing always the same things.

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which is already more than Warframe

no.
- tenno defense missions
- tenno extermination missions
- tenno flag missions
- survival missions
- infiltration missions
- excavation missions
- archwing defense missions
- archwing extermination missions
- archwing flag missions
- search missions
- all the special campaign missions
- capture missions
- rescue missions
- nightmare missions
- also a type of unique and long missions harder than nightmare wich i forgot the name
- pvp arena
- all the craft, not mission but part of the game possibilities.
- all new missions on openworlds planets.
and i did not play warframe for months, so i certainly forgot lot of things and they take places in tons on differents maps...
so come again and tel me that "no, warframe has less thing to do, you will end it quicker than spacelords !"

men... people who never want to admit they are saying bullshit are the more boring...


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that combined with the more competent Ai

guess you're talking in WF, cause i have never seen a so utterly stupid cheating AI than in spacelords... so, please...  ::)


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variety of raiders and weapons come together to provide a much better and more varied experience than Warframe

jesus...
if you don't like warframe it's your right, but stop trying bullshiting me please, i played warframe...
right now there is something like 40 warframes with each their own gameplay.
(i do not count primes in that)

and weapons are countless and a lot offer also different gameplay...


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Basically this claim is entirely false because of how subjective it is, you get bored without antags, well I get bored with them

hmhm...
and yet you are still here.
in a pvp game.
playing the same 17 exact missions you have already finished, again and again, while you have absolutly nothing more to gain or improve. and with mean antagonist who always kill you and make you cry about your lost time (if you don't want to lose time don't play video game by the may)
while there is true pve games, far more rich in content... =)
so excuse me if all this babling is not really convincing me. ;)


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Good luck with that, I would really like to see a person finish this game in 2 days…

well, me. if there had no level cap...
and yes i'm referring to mission, as i already said.
the rest is grinding to get differents character/weapon. (exactly like in WF... except you won't finish even all the campaign mission of warframe in two days.) ;)

well my opinion is, in pvp games, pvp, create a challenge who make us stay because we want to win.
that's why it's no use to make long games with tons of options in pvp games. because fighting each other IS the game itself. (that's why i'm pestering about all the fighting bugs who happens again and again in this game.
pvp games HAVE TO BE reliable to be really fun.
this one is not : 1/4 of times your character do random weird things in fights who make you fail.
and another 1/4 AI is openly cheating.
so there is nothing fun in that 2/4 of the fights.

anyway, if you think, no, this game could survive without pvp, good for you.
maybe you're right, maybe not, no-one cares and no one will never knows.

Whitebleidd

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Re: Leveing the playing field
Reply #20 on: June 28, 2019, 11:26:23 AM
snip
All those warframe “missions” you listed are the copy pasta I meant, they can all be summarized into a literal handful, also the Ai in warframe is brain dead, Ai in raiders is superior and it’s not only because of the potential damage/precision (bloated stats) they can achieve at higher mmr, that also happens, but in general they also react in more varied ways regardless of damage numbers. The hardest missions you can face in the game are not antag missions, not even close, high mmr missions is where the real difficulty and need for improvement is.

All frames end up feeling very similar, are you on a heavy, bulky frame? Well doesn’t matter, you can flip around and ninja dash like any of the light/slim frames, “countless weapons” yea sure… countless copy pasta weapons, most of them just a different skin, which isn’t the case with raiders.

hmhm...
and yet you are still here.
in a pvp game.
Not a PVP game, PVP doesn’t happen on every game, facts…

playing the same 17 exact missions you have already finished, again and again, while you have absolutly nothing more to gain or improve.
As if antagonists bring improvement… you either counter them or they counter you, this is not a pvp game of skill, if you’re looking for that, this is not a good place, pvp in this game is about cheese and exploiting, and most importantly NOT about facing your enemy, the game actively discourages it, any “good” antagonist will not attack head on, they will wait for a raider to be distracted with a mob or they will try to grapple from stealth (which wouldn’t be much of an issue to counter if not for the damn inconsistencies caused by lag). And ill repeat it again here, if you want a challenge, high mmr matches is where you’ll get it.

It’s pathetic watching all these “pvp” players that get their panties in a bunch when ppl suggest an ADDITIONAL pve mode, why? dunno, if you want to pvp do so, most pve players aren’t asking for its removal.

ScimitarSlice

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Re: Leveing the playing field
Reply #21 on: June 28, 2019, 01:21:54 PM
to the git gud learn to play people MSE already admitted the second protector is to fragile and weak.  So you are defending admitted brokenness from the designers. 

Just looking at actions and not words of MSE you see they are no interested in striving towards unbrokeness.

If looking for balance do what I did and go to another game.  It doesn't matter how well you are writer or how much logic you make, they don't care.  They can come on here and tell you they do but they really don't.  If you don't mind broken and is still fun for you then enjoy.

Urgehal

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Re: Leveing the playing field
Reply #22 on: June 28, 2019, 03:16:31 PM
And ill repeat it again here, if you want a challenge, high mmr matches is where you’ll get it.

Meh, when it comes down to it, you're still boringly auto-piloting against the AI. They're is just amped up to BS levels of cheese. Facing antags isn't challenging I agree, since raiders should win 80% of the time, but the cheese fest in higher end MMR matches aren't challenging either. They're amusing for sure though...

LüB

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Re: Leveing the playing field
Reply #23 on: June 29, 2019, 03:57:53 AM
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i think you are making your feeling as rule.
and immediately, the guy takes his own feelings as rule, without even trying to hide it:
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as a matter of fact, i do enjoy confronting antag.
and usually i play counter antag characters.
brilliant, you played yourself. it's not often that a significant portion of the community fight for PvP mode to be removed in a character based game. it's an empirically observable fact that antag mode is tolerated at best, and you're the exception of the rule.
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because, no offense hey community,
a phrase only followed up by outright insults.
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but it appears that 80% of players of this game are retarded children who can't adapt their characters to the mission they're gonna play (ending up with useless short range weapons against unreachable boss for exemple) or the possibility of the antag presence (forgivable for rank -65 and maybe 4, but not below) and then they come and cry here that antags are mean or harass their team to surrender...
so before crying against antags that are "so powerfull", learn to play correctly, stay grouped, adapt to the mission, and focus on reaching objective, or if antag are soooo strong, why don't you just play antag ? and then come back to give us your feedback.
First of all, nobody here was crying because antagonists are powerful, if anything the pvp landscape tilts towards raiders as of now. the point here is PvP is unbalanced and heavily favours veteran players, regardless of which side they're on.
The only reason I mentioned removing antag mode is that it's the only source of PvP, and that PvP, with the way this game is designed, will be impossible to balance and always act as a repellent to new players. Just because it's called antag mode doesn't mean the antags are the source of the problem, and anyone who couldn't make that differentiation in their skulls is, frankly, someone I'm ashamed for treating with any degree of seriousness.
From a game design perspective, the antag mode is a ticking time bomb. It's implemented as PvPvE, which means not only do things need to be balanced on the players' side, in terms of characters, weapons, cards, and the cqc system, it also needs to be balanced on the environment side. That means enemy AI, MMR averaging, maps, objectives and spawn locations will also need to be balanced, and balanced in a completely different way than PvE modes on top of that. And AFTER ALL OF THAT, it's asymmetrical PvPvE, which means that asymmetry will also need to be considered. Balancing the first half is hard enough, with soon-to-be 19 characters, each of whom has 5-6 weapons, with more to be added later, and hundreds of cards even without accounting for common counterparts of rares. Adding another dimension on top of that is basically a sure fire way of making sure your PvP is unsustainable long-term.
And let's say MSE is a group of prodigies who can handle all this work and somehow make the game resemble something remotely balanced. All of the development resources spent and will be spent on maintaining that balance could be better spent on developing new content for the game. You will not convince me, or indeed, anyone familiar with the game, that most people treat the game the same way you do. Antag mode isn't what's keeping the game alive, and if the game wants to live, new PvE content is required in the future, and soon.
And as a side note, "Why don't you play those games" is not so much a dickmove as it is a dickhead move. I can easily turn it around towards you and tell you to bugger off back to CS:GO, but I didn't because I at least want to remain reasonable in my argument.
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that being said, i'm not really playing the game for the pve. i play the pve to be able to bash the head of antag (or raiders) more efficiently when i fall on them.
Well, why isn't it a shame this game isn't made for you personally and need to keep it self alive with a community that plays differently to you then?

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yes, but in this game it does...
and i'm not the only one telling it.  ;)
so either way, you're not playing the same game that we are.
wich explain why you think this game is exactly like an openworld one, like fallout or borderlands...

or, more certainly, i think we have our answer and you are just showing bad faith, so it's useless to argue with people like you.

so yes, you are right, there is absolutly no difference, between this game and marioworld. proof is we can jump in both !
they should definitely add some mushrooms. people like mushrooms. i'm sure they will stick to the game thanks to them.
Oh christ you're descending into childish mockery. Wonderful.
AI technically predicts every move the player makes in every game, but never do they counter all the moves the player makes. The key words in my phrase wasn't predict, but counter. If the AI is indeed as broken as you say, you should never be able to cqc a single mob. But we can, can't we? And quite easily too. Fascinating how someone treating this game as a pure PvP game is complaining about AI difficulty, when really, PvP players should have zero difficulty handling AI.
What does open world have to do with any of this again? Those are examples of games people play for PvE, showing you clearly that having antag mode isn't a do or die situation for Spacelords.
And that last strawman....I mean, what do you want me to do? It's not even worth the effort addressing. I'm embarrassed on your behalf for that one, really.

sonofoz

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Re: Leveing the playing field
Reply #24 on: June 29, 2019, 12:24:15 PM
men, there is what, 10 people who come and give their opinion here ?
and in these 10peoples there is like me who defend pvp.
so one more time you are making your feeling as a rules.
"i'm not capable of defending myself and too lazy to understand why so remove it 'cause if i don't like it no-one has to !!
how self centered it is...?

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First of all, nobody here was crying because antagonists are powerful,

yes, you're doing it all the time.
and if you don't, so there is no problem with antag so go play, enjoy and leave us alone, since they are not a problem.

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the point here is PvP is unbalanced and heavily favours veteran players, regardless of which side they're on.

and if you were not so self centered, maybe you had seen that i already agreed with that...

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PvP, with the way this game is designed, will be impossible to balance

non sens.
of course there is and removing all pvp bonus on weapon and lvl as you mentionned is one of them wich one i already agreed with...

but the more i read you and the more my feeling is, he doesn't want old players to be less brutals againt new players, but he just want to win each time he faces antags to feel strong...
and for that i have only one answer for you, play better.

the game is balanced. well if you are not considering AI...
the only problem would be matchmaking.
and i figure matchmaking problems just comes from numbers of players.
so there is nothing to fix about, except removing th different pvp bonuses.

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And as a side note, "Why don't you play those games" is not so much a dickmove as it is a dickhead move. I can easily turn it around towards you and tell you to bugger off back to CS:GO, but I didn't because I at least want to remain reasonable in my argument.

well i'm playing a pvp game, enjoying the pvp part. so i don't why i should leave.
in fact the pvp part is maybe the only one i like... when fights are not bugged or with insane ping at least...

and i'm not passing my day crying about antag who are mean and overpowered people whereas i'm in an asymletrical pvp games.
i'm crying (a lot) about games bugs, wich are intolerable in any games, pve or pvp.

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Well, why isn't it a shame this game isn't made for you personally and need to keep it self alive with a community that plays differently to you then?

yeah as is not for you...
and it seems than dev themselves have a different vision of THEIR game than you.
so in the end... it seems their game is definitly more did for ME than you ;)

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The key words in my phrase wasn't predict, but counter.

yes and the key words in MY phrase was, "yes, but in this game it does...".

and if you still did not noticed it, as i said, lot of players have, here too, so have a better mmr and you'll understand that one more time you are saying bullshit or just showing bad faith.

for the rest, concerning pvp bonus i already said i agree with you for their removal.
i already agreed to a full AI mode for training too, as there is in all pvp games.

and for the antag presence, stop crying about it and just go train yourself.

Daimien06660

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Re: Leveing the playing field
Reply #25 on: July 11, 2019, 05:56:23 AM
totally agreed.
these passive pvp bonus are absurd to me too.

i'm not against pvp, i antag pretty often too. but it's still absurd, regardless of the camp you are in by the way.

yesterday a baby antag invaded the game.
he was something like rank 6 or 5, certainly one of his first antag play, and  i'm *5, not much but maybe something like 100lvl away from him.

the poor lad was unable to do something.
i had Hive and was stalking him. i could almost run toward him while he was unloading his gun at me, and then plague-slide/punch him, then crack his head open while he was crawling on the floor and... repeat...
don't know how many time i plagued his head off... i was nearly pitying him.

0 merit for me, 0 fun for him.
Yeah I think that was me and I was only 25 at the time and you have Antaged me a number of time too and it is NOT fun.

ScimitarSlice

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Re: Leveing the playing field
Reply #26 on: July 11, 2019, 12:17:35 PM
@sonoz
MSE_Ojuel and MSE_Karen said the 2nd protector was too weak so "git gud" is no make sense.

Spacelords is maybe the most fun game I ever played but there's reason some games have tournements where people travel from across the world to gather for a big cash prize and spacelords doesn't.