Mercurysteam's Hangout
BARRACKS => Gameplay Feedback => Topic started by: Skyline on June 13, 2018, 07:30:55 PM
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I hope I have created this subjects in the correct section. If isn't present - I Apologize.
1) Alicia's Rock&Roll Weapon.
This weapon is broken. One shot to force "locals" to the knees and broke Dion Shield. Two shots to kill.100% abuse by players. Not need skill,not need aim.Just walljump and fire.
Who and why has thought up this weapon? Alicia is character with the simplest and safe Gap Closer in a game, she use close range deadly shotguns. For what reason she recive weapon destroying everyone and everything on middle/average+ distances?
With this weapon she has no weaknesses. She has an advantage before almost all characters (unless snipers such as Harek Or Shae with very much far distance) that happens very seldom considering specifics of levels and range of Rock&Roll.
Solution:
No Idea, because even with one bullet mag and three second reload this weapon will be very strong.
2) Harek's ability without cd. A jump on a wall, a shot (oneshot or kneel condition), back somersaults (or blow to kill), again on a wall, - to repeat again and again. U can't play game and do obj and catch Antagonist Harek in same time with dat situation (no Cd on ability).
Solution:
Cooldawn 5+sec (begin after landing) of or 10+ sec during activation. Harek thought as the sniper, but not the retard jumping on walls and back,right?
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I think this is surely the first "nerf Harec" post, guess he's finally getting good enough to make people salty :D
Judging R&R because it can down locals is not a good example.... they have 60 HP. Raiders have to fight enemies with 300+ HP. We can't all be shooting 20 damage-per-shot guns and expect to win very often.
Lycus' shield honestly just needs a buff to scale with difficulty or MMR or something. It's powerful, but it loses effectiveness drastically with higher difficulty or when being shot with higher forge level weapons.
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Harec is fine however paired with certain cards he is a pain but not immortal. Skilled Harec players are rare and it really is a skill gap on his character.
Alicia I 100% agree takes no skill to blast someone with rocknroll. I'd rather have smoking daisy mags drop on my head and the player would get more respect due to the fact they stray from the current meta.
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Not immortal but you need spend all time for kill and ignore other gameplay,.You cant just play and deal with em like vs all other when they come or just turn camera and press punch after sound(vs doldren) Harek alrdy pain in ass with his ability...but when you need 4 players and 100500 attempts to catch him on idiotic jumps WITH NO CD...and you call these "jump on wall and back" without cd,- a skill? Dunno sir ...Or Mb i alrdy to old and cant understand "present of games" :)
Mr.LordDraco3 Other word you think R&R Well Ballanced Mid tier gun ,Very fun to play and for dealing vs i must just not pick locals? :D
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What was this Harec doing, exactly?
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I mean he has cards when he shadow stalkers back and he does 250-500% more melee damage. Also depending on the gun there isn't a charge time... Most likely you faced JHerin he is a narley herac antagonist.
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So, I'm pretty sure it was me...Like 90%. Harec isn't all that broken. You play him, and see what all you have to do to stay alive. That would be my suggestion. It's not a free win, you gotta work for it.
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R&R is TOO powerful and have, literally, no drawbacks. It does high damage at a GOOD distance, decent RoF and HUUUGE spread. It's not even a projectile weapon really, it's an Area of Effect weapon. Couple that with an Alicia who is always in the air and is not under any threat and you have a situation that can be overwhelming to deal with at best and downright cheap at worst.
I would suggest on, but not all at once, of the following:
1. Reduce the damage a bit, but keep it the same.
2. Or reduce the range, it needs to be short range and have significant falloff at medium. She is a shot gun character, she shouldn't be able to kill you from the air 50 feet away then fall behind a wall in safety.
3. Reduce the RoF, if we're keeping the damage and range then we should make it so there is breather time for her targets to react, otherwise it's not much of a competitive situation.
Any one of these things would be good enough. I hate R&R antags. No vulnerabilities.
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I fought multiple R&R's the past few days and continued to have little trouble with them, based on my personal extensive playtime experience, the complaints still feel overblown. The only kill I was surprised by was when I got cokcy and taunted from a pillar on Fistful of Sand, as Hans, and it 2-shot me. First shot didn't even wound me, but second shot killed me outright. Upon seeing that, Woody mentioned that it seems like the damage calculation may be off and sometimes seems to calculate damage more than once? Replicant felt like he was being 1-shot as Schneider.
Yes this gun will *decimate* certain characters. Others will destroy Alicia without her being any problem. That's how this game works. If it's bugged and causing random damage spikes, that should be fixed, but I have not had any trouble when playing as Hans, Lycus, Kuzmann, Konstantin, Schneider, just thinking offhand.
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I think in matches with ping spikes frequently sometimes the projectiles render damage twice. That is what I think that was.
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Who is good against R&R? I'm not being facetious, I'm honestly asking. Because I can't think of any of the characters I play that have been effective.
I primarily play:
1. Javalin, speed burst Ginebra (schleuder is cheap, but also inconsistent)
2. Sigh, stun lock Harmony Iune
3. Tolchock Konstantin (doesn't everyone? LOL)
4. Melee Doldren
5. Lichbogen self heal Kuzman
Any other characters I am just not good enough with or, sadly, do not have weapons I use that are upgraded enough to make them viable. i used to play Alicia, but my Smoking Daisy has not been forged up at all and I detest the R&R and feel it is cheap and boring and so don't use it even though it's upgraded a bit. Another is Hive, I can't get a Raceme upgrade so I no longer use her. I have her rare, Wasp I think, the one where you have to get SUPER close and has a build up bar, but it's too risky of a weapon for me, especially post patch.
With the character I play I am not very effective against R&R. and the game won't give me any blueprints for any of the weapons I would usually use on other characters so they're effectively dead to me.
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If you don't have any counter in your team it is very hard to play against Antagonist and it applies to raider as well.
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Tolchock kills everyone, if you can land any push on her it knocks her out of the air, sniping is always effective because you can get range, really any Kon gun burns her down, Pepper pot can hit her and knock her down if she can hit you, and if she's inside your optimal range you can two shot her dead. Rain of Fire does a good job, if she is in the air she jumped off something close enough to shoot her with. Hans kites the jump and bullets then swallows her up after she lands, Kuzz has some issues here, but both his single target guns would be a good choice.
Ultimately it boils down to team work.
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I agree with Brent and the others... I've only paid attention to as of late because I'm running into more Alicia antagonist. I find that higher ping games and spikes I tend to be left mmore confused on how I got melted VS optimal ping games. Alicia has plenty of counters and teamwork is 90% the reason you win or lose against her.
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In addition to Woody's comments, I did fine as Lichtbogen Antagonist. Airborne Alicia is a prime target for zapping, and Kuz can shoot far enough away to avoid the worst of the shots in addition to his armor. Jumping Alicias also do not pay attention if they are arcing or being arced by teammates. All of those other characters and strategies have worked for me.
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So the solutions seem to be
-always pick a counter character cause there might be an antag on a tolchok Konstantin or R&R Alicia, screw picking a raider you wanted to have some fun with or try out a new build/weapon with.
- Pray that you have pvp teamwork synergy with the other randoms.
Sounds fun…
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I mean, you should always keep a diverse group to be able to handle a variety of challenges. There's a reason teams don't run with 4 locals unless it's a joke/challenge ;)
I don't consider this a completely crazy thing to state, and it's by no means unique to Raiders. I do wish more characters had more variety or viability with facing different challenges, like Kuzman is the ONLY true crowd-clearer, but that's not what this thread is about. You can't just go and fight Aneska or Uras with Hive, Lycus, Alicia, and Loaht and expect to win, since they won't have really any long-ranged damage.
Pick stuff you like, within reason and with the experience of knowing what will work. If you go into Breath of Hope with randoms and no one picks Kuzmann, you should probably hop on that with the knowledge that enemies swarm in groups on that mission, overwhelming players with shotguns. These aren't requirements, but they will make your life a whole lot easier. I can't be the only person that plays this game that hates "single character" pickers that only play 1 character, all the type, every single mission, nothing else exists for them.
Like in Warframe, I don't pick Trinity for my Extermination missions, I'm gonna pick Mesa/Saryn/Ember/Oberon.
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I have Rock and Roll and I agree, when you play PvP it's broken but it plays well as PvE. I'd also add Konstantine's Tolchok which I believe pushes players even Lycus with his shield up. It works great PvE but PvP becomes broken. I think they should open up the second load out or allow for an alt loadout for Antagonist matches with weapons that are more balanced.
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I mean, you should always keep a diverse group to be able to handle a variety of challenges. There's a reason teams don't run with 4 locals unless it's a joke/challenge ;)
I don't consider this a completely crazy thing to state, and it's by no means unique to Raiders. I do wish more characters had more variety or viability with facing different challenges, like Kuzman is the ONLY true crowd-clearer, but that's not what this thread is about. You can't just go and fight Aneska or Uras with Hive, Lycus, Alicia, and Loaht and expect to win, since they won't have really any long-ranged damage.
Pick stuff you like, within reason and with the experience of knowing what will work. If you go into Breath of Hope with randoms and no one picks Kuzmann, you should probably hop on that with the knowledge that enemies swarm in groups on that mission, overwhelming players with shotguns. These aren't requirements, but they will make your life a whole lot easier. I can't be the only person that plays this game that hates "single character" pickers that only play 1 character, all the type, every single mission, nothing else exists for them.
Like in Warframe, I don't pick Trinity for my Extermination missions, I'm gonna pick Mesa/Saryn/Ember/Oberon.
This probably the best answer to your problem. Boss missions and heavy add clear mission pick your characters accordingly. Watching what your randos pick you may need to consider picking for the mission or being the pick up for anti-antagonist. Certain characters can be both but some are better for one or the other.
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Yea i often have to pick for antagonists on certain maps. :(
The problem is the antag can see what you pick but you can't see what they pick.
I've beaten R&R Alicias before, but it's no fun and is really annoying. They need a hero that can shoot a net and bind people to the ground. As far as Tolshock I was fighting her on Breath of Hope, which is her strongest map. And sure, I would shoot her with Tolchock but she would just be knocked down BEHIND the block of stone she was shooting from and then heal up again. She would murder everyone else. Me and her would be 50/50 when we encountered eachother. but I couldn't help but think, "If Konstantin with tolshock isn't a counter to her who is?" And before you say it was good I was 50/50 i outleveled her by 30 or 50 levels. And she would down me in two shots.
the gun shouldn't down me in two shots. It needs a nerf. It doesn't matter if a character in a videogame can "technically" be dealt with if you try extremely EXTREMELY hard, they still need a nerf. Beatable =/= balanced. This logic can be reenforced by the simple fact that other characters aren't this bad. I simply think the damage is a bit outrageous, when coupled with the absurd range and RoF.
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I think everyone has a means of causing just as much disruption as the RnR right now, the thing about the RnR is the ease of use. You pull the trigger after you float, and your job is done. Everyone else has a higher skill ceiling to function accordingly, but there needs to be a character that is usable for new players, which means when applied with the developing strategy/forge ranks it becomes a little much. I mean Dynamic is a crazy increase in dps on top of full Hero Killer.
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Why u talking about like "You must lern how to play vs R&R" . Whether the idelny proof is It that weapon is broken AF ? If u think tolchok more Op why 90% low skill antagonists players with no balls and small dick use Alisia instead Konstantine? :) Even monkey-antagonist with 3% mmr with dat more dangerous than 80%+ mmr True player who use somethink else.Not Agree? Rly?
Game will become better without this bullshit gun. Or at least to take away it from Alicia and to give to other character -make this broken gun more "Normal".
ADD: To add Cd on Alicia's ability that she could To kill only 1 or 2 and couldn't fly up safely on the invul again or to remake her ability thus that during a jump and aiming it couldn't move but only to hang in air or to reduce levitation speed by 500% that the opponent had a chance to hide behind a wall bcs she flies quicker than characters move and somersault,and ofc you cant trade dmg even if u 5th council with 60% resist bullets and cards on -dmg to wounded chance shots(hope you understand whot card i mean),- 100hp just 2 shot and you on kneels.
Absolutely broken .
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I was taking about 31 damage per shot as Kuzmann last night from an R&R, so 3 shots and I'm still standing. Iune kept popping her head with Wisdom which was about the only person that could handle her, since they nerfed Kuzmann's direct ray damage and there weren't many enemies spawning to arc from. We had a terrible Hans that never seemed to use jetpack and brought Warm, but I KNOW Hans can handle R&R. Konstantin would also Shred Alicia, but our team was just not suited to handle her very well with only 1 spike damage character and the most mobile one not using his mobility.
Some shots randomly still seemed to deal higher damage, they running theory is that the bounce is causing single shots to hit twice, kinda like the Schleuder can on bosses or if you hit the right angle/bounce. The R&R should definitely not be able to deal double damage with a shot, and that sounds, again, like a bug rather than how the weapon should be working. Bugs should be fixed, but if you are not considering it's a bug and want it nerfed into the dirt just because you feel it's difficult to fight against, that's not helpful to the character as a whole. All of Alicia's other guns are basically shit. Novera is garbage, Eager is garbage, Daisy is only situationally good and not a good "gun", R&R is like her only good shooting weapon. Her other guns all need buffs, imo.
If there's one upgrade that makes R&R particularly dangerous, it's dynamic, since it was never considered broken before due to slow shot speed and slow reload. If they switched Dynamic for like Treasure Hunter (because Alicia currently has NO guns with 2 reward upgrades) and added a bit more reload/fire rate to the base stats, that would seem fair. She was honestly more dangeous wounded than in the air, since her shots all came at whoever was going towards her for a finisher (because Hans wouldn't friggin jetpack!)