Author Topic: Alicia Players...  (Read 42758 times)

LordDraco3

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Re: Alicia Players...
Reply #90 on: July 17, 2018, 10:48:38 PM
Like it seems ironic that I, a lover of pvp antag mode, am the one who wants a weapon to remain relevant because it's already pretty unremarkable in pve, but the "pve only" players want it to be completely useless because they feel it's "too good" for pvp.

Like how high of a difficulty do you guys play at? :\ Because at 40% sure R&R will steamroll, but 60% it takes many shots to kill just wardogs, 70%+ it's anything but OP-feeling.

gearedbeast

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Re: Alicia Players...
Reply #91 on: July 17, 2018, 10:49:10 PM
The argument is that R&R is "too good" and needs a nerf of some kind, be it damage, range, fire rate, whatever. Any negative change would instantly translate to less power at a player's hands.

I already can't kill a rocket soldier with a full mag dump at 71% difficulty, and at 60% a mag dump only does like 1/3rd of a Hades elite's health. Reload speed is already kinda slow with max dynamic, losing fire rate, damage, range, etc. would make it even harder to fight with Alicia at high difficulty. She will just gather dust, like Hans, who is phenomenal at pvp, but terrible at high level pve because he just can't deal the damage.

The longest threads on this forum are all "nerf this" threads. It gets mentally exhausting to argue the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.
I understand the fatigue. I usually don't read those/these kind of threads because I don't fully understand or think of a helpful suggestion since they have to do with numbers and scaling. With that said, shouldn't the devs scale weapons around the mmr? At least to a point. I don't know how hard that'll be but food for thought for devs, i guess.

gearedbeast

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Re: Alicia Players...
Reply #92 on: July 17, 2018, 10:51:58 PM
Like it seems ironic that I, a lover of pvp antag mode, am the one who wants a weapon to remain relevant because it's already pretty unremarkable in pve, but the "pve only" players want it to be completely useless because they feel it's "too good" for pvp.

Like how high of a difficulty do you guys play at? :\ Because at 40% sure R&R will steamroll, but 60% it takes many shots to kill just wardogs, 70%+ it's anything but OP-feeling.
That goes with the pvp vs pve threads since that never really mesh well *cough* destiny *cough*
I usually play around 40-50% because I prefer my hair tearing to be pvp exclusive

Level9Drow

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Re: Alicia Players...
Reply #93 on: July 17, 2018, 11:19:45 PM
I'm sorry about the dissertation Draco, it was made more for dev eyes to see, my feedback to them. Since they hopefully will be reading both sides of the argument for and against a nerf of the R&R, I have to consider what and how I right it in this context. As far as trolling, I know what he's doing. And also, even though you seem to oppose the idea of a nerf, I wouldn't put you in the same boat is him. It's all part of the presentation, the "theatrics" of the combat we do here. I know I frustrate you, but so far I've learned that you are a reasonable person. I will try and tone down my dramatics when responding to you and be more honest.

As far as the R&R, you're right, Draco, Enemy AI becomes a problem regardless of how the weapon is verses other players. You won't find any protest from me regarding this. This is where we get into the problem of balancing PvP and PvE. And other questions arise, like, should enemy AI be nerfed and re-balanced a different way? But if the enemy AI was never to be nerfed then we would have to think about a way to address the R&R without making it any less potent against AI (assuming you were one who believes it is to powerful against players). I feel nerfing the fall off and keeping everything else, like the range, RoF and spread the same would be the best situation for this. I also wouldn't want the damage to be reduced at all for the first 3rd, or even half, of the length of the range. But where I think it's TOO strong is the damage at the further parts of the range. If we nerf the far ranges of the gun it will be easier for other players to deal with. And if we keep the damage the same in the first 3rd of the the length she could still do the same damage against enemy AI from above, just not from above and a mile away.
    I don't think this would be a bad nerf because we keep to the spirit of the characters mechanics. She is a shot gun hero who shoots people from above, she was never meant for long range combat in the first place. Or at least this is what I believe the devs thought of based on her other weapons and special. This would play on her strengths and not change her play style, but alleviate the power it has towards other players, Atnag AND Raiders, and draw it in line with the other characters (Tolchock may still be up in the air as well).
   Since it's a team game she would fill her roll against AI still at close range combat death from above against AI just fine. For long range, well we have other characters that specialize in that. She's not supposed to be good at everything. The entire Natives faction has character who can compensate on the team for that, Ginabra and Konstantin are good for filling this position as well. I don't believe there was supposed to be a one man army in PvE.
   Let's pretend you also thought it was a bit too powerful in PvP, just for hypothetical inquiry.  If you would nerf an aspect of her gun in a better way that would keep viability in PvE but make her risk more in PvP, how would you do it?

LordDraco3

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Re: Alicia Players...
Reply #94 on: July 17, 2018, 11:51:27 PM
I'm not honestly sure there is a way to reasonably tone the weapon down in a way that makes a measureable effect on pvp and not pve.

Alicia jumps and stays in the air, far higher than anyone else. This means her shotguns require a longer effective range, otherwise the bullets just won't reach the target. Actually, Novera has this exact problem, when you get up in the air it feels like enemies below you at an angle are just too far away to shoot.

The only gun I've agreed needs a nerf, the Tolchok, is due to how roughly it affects a player experience. Playing with it in pve it's not that bad, but not even that good, due to the inability to sustain fire. It's actually kind of annoying sometimes to push elites away from you that you intent to capture, or push an elite with aleph near an ally. Most high level players I know vastly prefer Hornet. But to be a player, being pushed every 0.3 seconds completely dominates you and makes you unable to react or do anything. R&R hurts, Tolchok dominates. Also when compared to every other push gun, it practically invalidates the S.Bogen, Ingrid, etc. because it has such constant and far-reaching pushes.

This is a mechanical problem with having this much pushing power, that causes the pvp balance to be broken while not even really adding much to the pve player's arsenal in a meta that demands you wound elites, not kill them from afar. The R&R, post-nerf, does not carry a mechanical problem that pushes it to this level. The glitch made it really strong, but also scored a lot of accidental kills due to triggering triple damage as you go to wound something. That's gone, so I don't see the weapon as being an issue unless you're unfortunate enough to be in a match where not a single player picked a character/weapon that can handle a jumping Alicia.

Level9Drow

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Re: Alicia Players...
Reply #95 on: July 18, 2018, 01:37:58 AM
Like it seems ironic that I, a lover of pvp antag mode, am the one who wants a weapon to remain relevant because it's already pretty unremarkable in pve, but the "pve only" players want it to be completely useless because they feel it's "too good" for pvp.

Like how high of a difficulty do you guys play at? :\ Because at 40% sure R&R will steamroll, but 60% it takes many shots to kill just wardogs, 70%+ it's anything but OP-feeling.

I try and keep afloat around 40%. If have to throw as antag to do this otherwise I start creeping up too high. the highest I've been was upper upper 60%, and it was terrifying, at least for me. I don't think, that I know, if I went to 70%, maybe I did once, but blocked the experience out of my memory due to mental trauma.
   But yea, I think every gun is weak at those higher MMRs. But I think the problem is the way they raise the AI power at higher MMR %. And if you make weapons good for the sole purpose of higher MMRs you are going to get a very rapid power creep and this will have a catastrophic effect on PvP. The sad thing is that we can't choose our difficulty. Hell, if PvP and difficulty was optional none of this would be an issue. But what you seem to be arguing is that since high MMR is hard you think weapons should not be nerfed, even if they are a problem in PvP. You don't think this is more of an MMR AI power issue rather then a weapon power issue?
    I will have to defer to you on Tolchock, I only use it in PvE. And I almost never see Konstantin antags, to be honest, mostly Alicia antags and a sprinkle of others. And even when I do see him with the Tolchock I use Javalin Ginebra a lot, so I never have issues with him. I have yet to find a character that I can handle R&R as easily as I can deal with Tolchock. I just forged Hatchet last nigh, maybe this will work? I dunno.
   New question: If they fixed the MMR AI power creep and changed it, say to have the AI just be more numerous as it went higher and be more accurate and fast as opposed to higher health, damage and melee, would you be more comfortable with an R&R re-balancing? I'm just throwing options around at this point and painting different scenarios to give feed back and refresh new ways of thinking about this for devs to read over. I don't have any illusions that we are going to find the "golden answer" in this thread. The more ideas we have and the more perspectives are given by different people it will give the devs a wider scope of the "scenery".
   And thanks Draco, for not totally abandoning the thread and playing along giving feedback. You actually have brought up some of the most pertinent points.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 01:52:39 AM by Level9Drow »

LordDraco3

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Re: Alicia Players...
Reply #96 on: July 18, 2018, 02:24:45 AM
I would like to see the MMR game balance to be re-examined. Because yeah, we can't currently live with both ultimate cosmic powered AI but have guns meant for fluffy bunnies.

Also hate to break it to you, but Hatchet is an awful weapon :(

Level9Drow

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Re: Alicia Players...
Reply #97 on: July 18, 2018, 02:38:01 AM
I don't mean to change the subject but:
https://twitter.com/mercurysteam/status/1019265597379661824
Is this really happening? OMG this game keeps giving me reasons to love it. Oh R&R you are a thorn in my side but Aneska... well, she's something else.

XjabberwockieX

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Re: Alicia Players...
Reply #98 on: July 18, 2018, 03:55:58 AM
I don't mean to change the subject but:
https://twitter.com/mercurysteam/status/1019265597379661824
Is this really happening? OMG this game keeps giving me reasons to love it. Oh R&R you are a thorn in my side but Aneska... well, she's something else.

Sure looks like a hero shot of Aneska! Its what I want the most in this game. Make Aneska a playable raider and I will never complain about anything with this game again!  ;D

ArnoldCat

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Re: Alicia Players...
Reply #99 on: July 18, 2018, 03:57:02 AM
I don't mean to change the subject but:
https://twitter.com/mercurysteam/status/1019265597379661824
Is this really happening? OMG this game keeps giving me reasons to love it. Oh R&R you are a thorn in my side but Aneska... well, she's something else.

Gotta catch 'em all!


OoTRIGGAMANoO

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Re: Alicia Players...
Reply #100 on: July 23, 2018, 01:14:25 AM
Can't believe this is still going... Nothing better to do?? Seriously? I've seen 2, only 2 Alicia Antags since fix. How are you still getting beat by her? Maybe us console players just don't have as many or something. Either way, ya know my 2 cents. Move on. And yaaaayyy for Aneska if that happens. Side note, Space Lords... Dumb name. Less original even than the first. But a rose by any other... Yadda yadda.

Level9Drow

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Re: Alicia Players...
Reply #101 on: July 27, 2018, 07:42:08 AM
Had another R&R train wreck. I kept suggesting a surrender but the other players decided to take me hostage, again. I did the noble thing and didn't suicide the game out. Take a guess what happened? Just guess how my faith got rewarded. With no possibility of a win, not even remotely.

I will NEVER fall for this again. I've learned my lesson. So, from now on I will no longer allow myself and my time to be taken hostage. I will ask only once to surrender against an R&R. And if they decide to waste my time and patience I will suicide the game out. It's just a COLOSSAL waste of time to even attempt. Give the dick head what he wants quick and get the fuck on to more productive gains ASAP. You can't say I didn't try, and you can't say I didn't give it the benefit of the doubt. Out of my hands, bad balancing and design, sorry. I take no responsibility for this gross error of design.

Good job MSE. Hoping to see this cheap ass gun nerfed soon. I have faith you will make the right choice. I wouldn't want to see your new IP Space Lords ruined because of this oversight. I know nothing will happen now, you guys are an indie studio and work take time. I fully expect to see it, however, August 23rd.

OoTRIGGAMANoO

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Re: Alicia Players...
Reply #102 on: July 27, 2018, 04:55:53 PM
Lol oh Drow.... You slay me sometimes. I've said it before and I'm guessing you'll make me say it again, you cannot and aren't supposed to win 'em all. Would be pretty boring if we could. Also here's a novel idea, maybe try playing for fun instead of max awards that nerfing everything won't get you anyhow. I don't know who you play all the time as Alicia that kills your game so much but I know it ain't me. I play mostly support no matter who I chose. Get whoever has aleph into a crawl and let me mates sort 'em out from there. When I Tag I almost always sit it out. I just Tag for affinity to upgrade BP's. And I never use Alicia... Thanks to your constant and never ending complaints about her. Just in case I do tag against you one day you won't be able to cry about losing to another Alicia. I've done plenty of damage in the past as Shae and that ain't no easy task by any means. And to those who pick Alicia as a tag, you're not dicks!! Don't worry. Some people just hate to lose. So just keep hitting them as hard as you can and keep you're head on a swivel at all times no matter who you are. Remember also the bottle neck. Funnel folks in like the hot gates... That last goes for everyone always. Xoxo

Ps. Drow, who are you playing as when you lose to Alicia? You're almost making me wanna try and tag with her just to see if it really is that easy to win. Good team work is what gets me through it all... Also the point of the game. No one is more important than the other if every ones doing their jobs right.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 05:00:18 PM by OoTRIGGAMANoO »

Level9Drow

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Re: Alicia Players...
Reply #103 on: July 27, 2018, 05:55:14 PM
Triggerman, I lose to many other antags, like Rak, Shae, Kuzman and even Alicia wtih Smoking Daisy. And while I don't like PvP, at least I don't feel there was an unfair advantage with these other characters. I also win against them to. But the issue isn't Alicia, it's R&R on a flying character. So don't go thinking this is an Alicia issue, or a general antag issue, although that is another conversation to be had, but unrelated to the R&R.

When you have a high damage yeilding weapon, with a far rang and wide spread on a FLYING character, they have to hit targets below them that only move on a two dimensional axis, so it is impossible to miss with the weapon and, obviously, impossible to avoid. There isn't any way to combat this unless you are in a 4 stack premade with communication and dump your whole party on her. Now we have to ask ourselves why no other antag weapon needs the attention of a navy seals team in order to beat. Tolchock? Easy peasy, Javalin eats them up. But R&R? Well you just spray and pray when you see her.

I've explained this all before. And I really hate to repeat anything Triggerman, because you never replied or countered the arguments I laid out before in this thread. You're just saying, "Git gud, stop being a cry baby." and I'm saying, "How does that refuting my points?"

I respect that you peaceful antag, I always do this, especially when there are low level players in the mix. Everyone plays for their own reasons. I play to make progress. I accept losses in fair situations. But when I detect an unfair situation I will bring it up. And the R&R is currently an unfair situation.

What I ask from you is to go back to the post I made in this thread where I make 7 points, on page 6 of the thread. Read that and tell me what you think. I think it's reasonable and truthful. Try and have an open mind. I'm not trying to beat anyone over the head with these points, I'm trying to make the devs aware of an issue that I see.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 06:12:08 PM by Level9Drow »

OoTRIGGAMANoO

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Re: Alicia Players...
Reply #104 on: July 27, 2018, 07:22:58 PM
Well to be honest I don't have time to read all your posts. There's soooo many. And my only counter point is from experience. I do not have a problem against R&R, not at all since the fix. I can wax an R&R player with Mikah, Ginebra, Shae, Iune, etc. I'll start streaming again maybe to prove this. I've been playing games everyday since summer of '86 when my dad got the family our first and last NES. I don't know tech specs or jargen. I just know how to strategize my play and adapt to and try to over come obstacles thrown in my path. I'm not saying by any means you can't. And I would never tell someone to "get gud"... Maybe I'd say get good... Lol no I wouldn't do that either. I'm just saying that I like to use this character and why wouldn't I wanna use her most powerful weapon. Makes the wins quicker and speed is a factor. I don't like that you wanna squash her because she can be so effective on a PVE game with the right player. I've said before when I play her and there's an Antag, whoever they may be, I make it my mission to take out the Antag and protect my team as much as I can so they can complete the needed tasks as fast as possible without getting stomped by said Tag. I only have comms when I play with my roommate who sits on the other side of the room. No plans are made with anyone else. I do my job and the rest are freed up to do theirs. If you make her useless with all these complaints that I don't have, then I'm gonna be sad. You don't wanna make me sad do you? I wish they would make a way you don't have to fight a Tag but that would seriously ruin the whole game I feel. Its unique and exciting win or lose. I love it to death and I don't ever want to stop using Alicia... Though I hardly play her any more do to the baby Huarec stop move I learned from you;)  I'd rather a lower level take her than Harec any day. So like I said I can only speak from personal XP and in that I cannot agree with you.  She's just not that tough to beat now at all. Sorry but that's all I have for a counter argument. Can't you just talk about all the lag issues and getting stuck inside of things and the like? Pretty please... That stuff kills me way more than any Antag. Although I F'n hate Doldren Antags. Bane of my current existence lol. Xoxo
« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 07:25:14 PM by OoTRIGGAMANoO »