[Shadow]

So you wAnt old rnr back no chance...

[Deathprize]

Oh god no I don't want the old rnr back I want the current toned down if anything.

I want her other guns to be improved so they are worth using.

For Novera it's rubbish damage can be kept if the critical rate gets increased to about 36-40%.

The Eager should have more damage or bullets, so if you land a full clip on something it's dead.

Smoking Daisy should have a faster firing rate and one more bullet.

[Level9Drow]

Oh god no I don't want the old rnr back I want the current toned down if anything.

I want her other guns to be improved so they are worth using.

For Novera it's rubbish damage can be kept if the critical rate gets increased to about 36-40%.

The Eager should have more damage or bullets, so if you land a full clip on something it's dead.

Smoking Daisy should have a faster firing rate and one more bullet.

This is a good suggestion. I would keep the damage for R&R the same but give it way more drop off from range. It should hit for 30 past half it's range.

The suggestions for Novera and Eager were good. I think smoking daisy should have no damage drop off and do as much as R&R does now. The range for the Smoking Daisy is so fricken short and it projectile speed is so slow, you would think it does the most damage of all her guns, but the gun that has the FURTHEST range, bounces off walls AND has one of the highest fire rates of her weapons does the most? O_o?  I think the balance should be that the R&R does medium damage of all her guns since it has so many other advantages and that the Smoking Daisy does the most, since it should pay off when you actually do get a hit in from it's molasses bullets.

[LordDraco3]

Anyone that has maxed out her weapons understands why R&R is the go-to, I've said it like 100 times Alicia has the worst arsenal in the game, outside of the R&R itself.

If you want to play Alicia, you play R&R or you're not gonna be much help... unless you are really good at dropping bombs with the Daisy, but as we all know, as a GUN, that shoots bullets, it's one of the worst in the game.

It's not that R&R is OP, it's that all her other guns are so bad they aren't even worth pressing the fire button on. People always assume when they see the same gun all the time, it must be "OP" but perhaps instead, it's just the only viable weapon.

[Level9Drow]

It still needs damage drop off. Compare it to other characters weapons in the game and you will see it has a nearly full house compared to some of the other character's weapons that are considered good. but you are correct to say her other guns suck all the same.

[LordDraco3]

I'd honestly rather see every other gun in the game improve their damage falloff. Bullets don't lose half their velocity at 25 meters! Doldren can't shoot 10 feet away without *massive* damage falloff, Dolores acts like a shotgun that's sawed off right at the chambers and has no barrel, so many weapons are super short range. Barrier was spitting 6 damage at range on the stream. It's supposed to hit like 30-50.

[Deathprize]

Rock and roll definitely should have drop off like nearly every other shotgun based weapon in the game has.

Another thing is how bright and screen filling the shots are. At time it almost acts as a smokescreen as all you see is orange!

Again most antagonists are still picking her and that gun over all the other characters with the exception of Tolchok Konstantin. There has to be a reason and it's that it makes it a lot easier to win. You need to pick certain characters to counter it against a good player, which maybe the worst set for actually completing the mission itself.

Tolchok Konstantin I don't feel is as hard to deal with.

[Level9Drow]

I agree Draco, but if we're going to leave R&R alone with no damage drop off with that incredible range compared to the rest of her weapons and still deal 90 per shot then this means the other guns should do even MORE damage to compensate for their shorter range, especially Smoking Daisy, but would you be ok with SD doing 100+ per shot?

Regardless of the values, remember that it's about balance relative to it's counterparts. To me it doesn't make any sense to have the gun that has the MOST range, bounce and a relatively high RoF to do the most damage as well. It has too many pros and no cons. We have to ask ourselves, what is the use of the other weapons? So, the other weapons need a buff. But even if we buffed them would the R&R still be the best?

Ask yourself this. How would you buff her other guns to make them compete with the R&R? If the result is that the R&R is still better then it has TOO MANY pros. Be honest, it has literally no cons to it at all, none, nada. This means particular features of the other guns would have to be buffed beyond the limit of the R&R to be seen as valuable in at least a niche way.

[Deathprize]

I feel the damage fall off on a lot of the guns is that way to push you into playing a certain way with that particular character.

That being said certain guns really do suck such as Dolores. It basically can't hit any objective that you can't walk up to.

Shtorm is another gun that suffers greatly from this, especially since it has a long long long cool down if overheated.

I would like it if every gun was viable instead of the newly released ones for most characters.

[LordDraco3]

Yes, Daisy should do way more damage! It was the biggest disappointment when I finally got mine and then tried out what was at that time, one of the rarest guns in the game. It's currently not a good gun at all, like I keep saying, it's currently just a tool to bomb people, you're Ayana if Ayana could only drop mines instead of shoot them. Hell the shots could hit 200 damage and it would still be questionable, due to how stupidly slow and short the projectiles are.

Yes I keep saying all of her weapons need to be buffed above and beyond because they are just that awful. Novera has a pretty nice wide pattern and can hit big groups, but that doesn't matter if it tickles them. If it had less range but could pop off a group of enemies with higher damage, it would be a viable choice vs. R&R. It's also a starting gun and starting weapons need to entice new players by not making them feel like weaklings. Other guns should be strong and fun too, but the starting weapons in this game are woefully terrible, with the exception of Hans and Kon to some degree.

And Eager should kill anything in the game that you hit with all of its shots, period. You're mag-dumping a shotgun... why is ANYTHING standing after that? Sheppard also mag dumps but it's an actual good gun that can pepper a map in death or wreak havok in tight spaces. Eager currently has no reason to  ever be played.

[Level9Drow]

I feel the damage fall off on a lot of the guns is that way to push you into playing a certain way with that particular character.

That being said certain guns really do suck such as Dolores. It basically can't hit any objective that you can't walk up to.

Shtorm is another gun that suffers greatly from this, especially since it has a long long long cool down if overheated.

I would like it if every gun was viable instead of the newly released ones for most characters.

But it's a balancing act. Every weapon should be viable, of course. But balance is created by having pros and cons, strengths and weaknesses of weapons. Some weapons have no weaknesses. And if you're ok with weapons having no weaknesses, then you have to make all raiders use the same weapon. Then you lose uniqueness and variety.

So I have a question for you and Draco, in an ideal situation where all of Alicia's guns were decent. What advantage should the other guns have over R&R? and What should R&R be known for and what would it's weaknesses be? Go through each gun, Novera, Eager, Smoking Daisy and of course R&R. This isn't a diatribe, but an honest question.

EDIT: I was a bit late on this posting, I think Draco answered some of this in the above post. But if there is anything further to add, or if anyone else would like to add what they think each gun should be at, this would be helpful.

[LordDraco3]

I feel like I'm repeating my last post, again, but....

Novera has a wide spread, it's good at hitting a lot more enemies than R&R which is comparatively pretty tight (unless you bounce it in a tight space, which can also harm Alicia). It also shoots and reloads faster.

Eager SHOULD pump out massive burst damage. Reduce the recoil a bit as well to make it more reliable.

SD needs more damage, faster projectiles, more range.... it holds 3 shots, it needs to do it all to justify such a small magazine just because it has a special alt fire, which is no longer all that special with Ayana and Barrier being in the game.

[Level9Drow]

What is the weakness of R&R though? Because even with the biffs to the other weapons you suggest, the R&R is in the "Goldilocks zone" of having just enough spread, just enough RoF, just enough range and more than enough damage that even if A) The Novera hitting more targets, B) Eager doing massive burst and C) The SD doing the most damage, say 100+, with more range at faster speed, the R&R still is the best bet.

the reason I say this is because once you do good damage at a safe range compared to the other weapons. So why would I choose SD if it hits harder when I can be further away with decent enough damage at a higher rate of fire with R&R? Why would I choose Novera if the spread on R&R is STILL decent enough relative to the more tons of damage I do with R&R? AND at a safer distance? Eager probably would be good if you could blast a fool with one clip though. This is why I think it need damage drop off a bit to give it a weakness compared to the other guns. In your example you gave, the buffs you gave were all really good, but the weapons still all had weaknesses. R&R still not having any relevant weaknesses, again, being in the "Goldilocks" state where, in your scenario, it may not be the best (well range), but it is damn good enough in RoF, damage, spread and range that it is better than the rest still.

So I have a new question, what should R&R's weakness be? And do you feel the weakness it has is potent enough to make it balanced with the rest?

I'm sorry to dig your brain here. I'm just trying to surgically get to the root of the weapon and place all the parts on display on these forums so the devs can see. Thanks for playing along.

[Deathprize]

How about lowering the damage (perhaps 30% reduction), but then playing up the ricochet effect so you can really bounce it around corners and stuff. That would help differentiate from the other guns plus not make it useless. Successful bounce shots could hit twice so it's damage potential isn't thrown out of the window.

[LordDraco3]

R&R used to be weak in fire rate and reload. Even at max dynamic, the reload is still a bit on the slow side for her fast playstyle, but Daisy is even slower and I haven't played the other 2 recently enough to remember. That reminds me that Daisy needs a faster reload. I don't actually feel like the R&R spread is that wide in comparison to other shotguns in the game, it's just visually confirmed by the bright shot. It can also hurt the shooter if it bounces back at her. I'd also say max ammo capacity is a weakness of the gun, it's easy to burn through your ammo reserves quickly.