Mercurysteam's Hangout
BARRACKS => Suggestions => Topic started by: Level9Drow on June 27, 2018, 08:49:22 AM
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...I'm curious, do you actually think you have any skill using that broken ass weapon? You do realize they're nerfing the gun don't you? Devs already said they realize the issue and are planning on fixing it with R&R.
I strongly suggest they roll back your rewards from using R&R. And if not then at the very least refund all the victims who have been griefed by that weapon. Facing an R&R antagonists is basically cheap ass robbery.
The devs won't disable the gun while they fix it, and all the while it's causing players to leave. You should refund gold to all the players who DIDN'T use the gun as antagonists and exclude the players who did. That's my suggestion.
This gun is NEVER going to stop pissing people off. My other suggestion is to disable it before it does more damage to the community of gamers.
For all you Alicia R&R antagonists, you are despicable sleaze and deserve none of your earnings. You don't deserve any respect as a sportsman and I look forward to the R&Rs castration, I honestly hope it gets over nerfed and becomes useless. And know you have done so much damage to this game and have driven away so many players you are actually a liability to it. You actually reduce the quality of it.
You can report me for this thread if you wish. And if I get banned let it be a testament to the egregiousness of this horrible HORRIBLE weapon abuse and its affect on the Raiders community.
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Same, I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same player, I'm level 129, but I doubted because so many players are abusing the gun right now, shamelessly. I feel like we should be compensated for this somehow.
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I cant name names but the majority of R&R antags have been between 35 and 75 in level. I have started making a point of remembering who they are. If they stick around when the R&R is fixed, I hope they are good at the game thats all I can say. ;)
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For the record, I don't use the R&R. I think it's cheap and unsportsmanlike.
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I just can't take these posts seriously anymore. You take these issues wayyyyy personally.
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I just can't take these posts seriously anymore. You take these issues wayyyyy personally.
Then don't? But just know memes and whether or not you take something serious does not count as a counter argument. I have to say, I wasn't expecting a post like this from you Draco. That kind of sucks.
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You take someone using something that's glitched or broken (or even just plain seen as "OP" in your eyes) as a personal attack against you, personally. You want to attack players outside of the game, as you even admitted in the pve/pvp thread, and you continue to make threads for that purpose. You want progress removed, rewards stripped, levels and gold reset, etc. which are all way off the charts of absurdity. Because someone used something in the game that's currently broken, you want to see half the playerbase punished in a tangible negative way. And even beyond the bug fix, you still want things nerfed right into the trash bin because that's ALWAYS your solution to losing against something in a pvp setting.
I'll remind you that after so many complaints of R&R, I was the one who sat down and did just a tiny bit of testing to find out it was glitched to get it reported and fixed, because I got tired of hearing about it every. single day... But I KEEP hearing about it every day even though we have a dev response regarding it. Everyone wants to whine about a problem without even trying to find out what the actual problem is.... because reporting that a gun was "OP plz nerf" is completely different than saying "hey this is currently not working as intended and this is what's happening". And now it's devolved to "I hate this gun so much I want it removed from the game or rendered completely obsolete and punish everyone who uses it" which is absolutely damaging to the player experience in the long run. It took forever for Loaht to become remotely viable again after his glitched card was fixed *because he also got over-nerfed in addition to the bug fix* but you're calling for that same over-tuning to happen again.
How can I keep taking this type of feedback seriously? And do you truly and honestly believe the devs take this kind of negative toxic feedback seriously?
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I never asked for people to be attacked in real life, Draco. Calm down. I did ask that the battle be fought outside the game through the forums and encouraging a change. This is what I meant by "real life" PvP. I am truly sorry if it sounded at all like i was asking for real attacks. I can understand how you would think I am utterly ridiculous if that's what I was asking for as well. I had to think about it for a sec, and if I was in your shoes and though another player was asking for real life violence I would have responded even harsher than you. I am truly sorry for the misunderstanding.
As far as taking it personally; you must be a young man Draco. I am middle age and I work 40 hours with a long commute. My time is precious, I don't have the patience for wasting it when I'm supposed to be enjoying myself. So in order to get some kind of change I have to vie aggressively in the feedback, otherwise there is a chance nothing may be done. And, I'll admit, I get pissed sometimes as well (I'm more than positive you know this). I really hate feeling cheated. And R&R is a real headache for, not only me but, many players currently. Half of what I say is emotional hyperbole and the other half is authentic emotion. Why? Because you have to yell louder than you actually feel in order to drive your point through, to make it more poignant.
I hope that clears up some of you issues with my posts.
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LordDraco3 you have to admit they are taking way too long to fix it, this is not the type of thing that can be left for the next official patch, it needs a hotfix, take for example the warden 1-hit kill bug in For Honor, that was patched within a day or two if I remember correctly, I also mention this bug cause ppl that used the bug were reprimanded, imo same should be the case for anyone using R&R as antag after the bug was confirmed.
It is great that you found the bug though, I know it didn’t occur to me it was a bug when I saw multiple numbers being displayed, just assumed it was bullet bounce.
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ummmm git gud?
lol, you guys are delusional if you really think that gun is going to be obsolete after the nerf. If you haven't noticed that's the only decent weapon alicia has. I bet you anything the difference won't be huge after the nerf.
So prepare those salty comments after the nerf because you can bet your butt they're not going to tweak that gun too much.
The irony is beautiful a blue haired feminist looking character making people trigger.
Now if you excuse me I'll keep nuking scrubs with my RR LOL
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ummmm git gud?
lol, you guys are delusional if you really think that gun is going to be obsolete after the nerf. If you haven't noticed that's the only decent weapon alicia has. I bet you anything the difference won't be huge after the nerf.
So prepare those salty comments after the nerf because you can bet your butt they're not going to tweak that gun too much.
The irony is beautiful a blue haired feminist looking character making people trigger.
Now if you excuse me I'll keep nuking scrubs with my RR LOL
Keep spamming that shit gun until it gets nerf and don't come back to cry after it gets nerfed.
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ummmm git gud?
lol, you guys are delusional if you really think that gun is going to be obsolete after the nerf. If you haven't noticed that's the only decent weapon alicia has. I bet you anything the difference won't be huge after the nerf.
So prepare those salty comments after the nerf because you can bet your butt they're not going to tweak that gun too much.
The irony is beautiful a blue haired feminist looking character making people trigger.
Now if you excuse me I'll keep nuking scrubs with my RR LOL
Ah, thanks for reminding me why people like you are the enemy, and why I can never EVER feel any sympathy for people like you. Thank you for making me realize that I can't give up this argument and that we have to raise a bigger row to get this gun changed.
I want to introduce you to PvP outside the game. It's your input and influence verses mine. When the gun gets nerfed I will have won and you will have lost. And you will whine and bitch that "you just needed to get gud, why you nerf?" and to me that will translate to "I LOST YOU WON". And I hope you show your face here when that happens because I'll be here waiting with a grin.
You should like this, after all, it's a form of PvP with bigger more permanent stakes. PvPers should like ALL adversity in life actually, it would seem hypocritical otherwise. Think of it as a "challenge".
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I've tried to refrain from posting anything for a while now because I have nothing but love for this game. Antags and all! I love the art, the lore, the characters etc. All of it. And Alicia happens to be my favorite. She's got it all. Her mobility is what drew me in and the R&R has been a wonderful bonus. I don't Antag often, only when I need a BP upgraded or BP hunting and I am into the non spawning when I Tag. But... I do pick Alicia a lot for Raiders in case there is an Antag. I like to make them second guess there decision to indeed play as an Antag and it helps me keep my team safe. So if you wanna squash my ability to help you by nerfing along with the fix, that might be sad. Alicia is great. No need for all the hate. Sidenote I feel like these forums are only for the 2 of you (you know who you are) since y'all are the only 2 I ever really see in such great abundance.
Who is you main by the way Drow? I'm curious.
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Depends on the map. Javalin Ginebra most the time, Sigh Iune for Hanging by a Thread, Kuzman for No Reservations and sometime A Breath of Hope, Tolchock Konstantin or Cookie Loaht for heave mob maps. I mix it up sometimes between these guys. But mostly Ginebra, Konstantin, Kuzman, Iune, Loath.
I used to play Alicia but I didn't get the Smoking Daisy upgrade, I got it recently and haven't forged it up, but when I do I will be adding her back into the mix.
Don't listen to forum rankings, it says I'm a senior member, but that just means I have a loud mouth and am overly opinionated. I think the best post are buy people who don't post often, because it's an issue they feel is good enough to speak up on. Regulars are good, I guess. There's a lot of guys who I believe have balanced views, like Draco (believe it or not), Brent, Beer, etc... who I think contribute good feedback, and there's others who are ore passionate like me, Jabberwockie, Some Guy, etc... I think we provide a position for the previous to bounce off of with opinions. The developers read the forums and actually use the feedback . So my posts are somewhat purposefully hyperbolic and somewhat honest emotion, a bit like Alex Jones. I fill a viewpoint and others argue against or for it and the devs read the interactions. This is hopefully to better the game. I do things this way because I have a long history of forum posting and in my experience nothing ever gets done in echo chambers. There has to be argument and conflict to stir up the issue from the muck and throw it in the light so people can see it, agree or deny it. Draco may not like this, but I this is how things work in this medium.
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I do things this way because I have a long history of forum posting and in my experience nothing ever gets done in echo chambers. There has to be argument and conflict to stir up the issue from the muck and throw it in the light so people can see it, agree or deny it. Draco may not like this, but I this is how things work in this medium.
Nah you're right
(https://i.imgur.com/7lWjDiH.png)
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;_;
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Fair enough. Like I said I absolutely love Alicia and even if they make her harder to play I'm pretty sure she'll still be my girl. Savin up for the engagement ring lol. I do however use others as well. Ayana, Shae, Ginebra, and am trying to get into Mika and Hive lately. I'm a ladies man I just realized... Shucks;)
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Fair enough. Like I said I absolutely love Alicia and even if they make her harder to play I'm pretty sure she'll still be my girl. Savin up for the engagement ring lol. I do however use others as well. Ayana, Shae, Ginebra, and am trying to get into Mika and Hive lately. I'm a ladies man I just realized... Shucks;)
Bro, I know. She was my favorite character to. I was a Smoking Daisy player and when Rock & Roll came out, pre-Hades Betrayal known as the Novera "remade", I thought it was boring to use. It wasn't bugged like it is now to one shot people, but it was decent, far better than her other guns, but not OP like now. I didn't like using it because it was more fun using Smoking Daisy, and, back then, Smoking Daisy did more damage and could one shot people if you unloaded all your shells on them, but it was fair because it was a trade off because you have to unload the shells over their head or slide through them and unload and the RoF on unloading your shells all at once was VERY low, you basically have to reload all over like Rak Mayura. SD was a better gun also because you could do so many interesting tricks, like unload in the middle of getting face punched and flipping back that way your attacker would be left in a pile of explosive shells while you dodged out of danger and then they'd go boom. It was a finesse weapon with high learning curve and high potential ceiling. But it's direct fire was underwhelming.
To side with Draco, her default gun and Eager suck. At leas the Eager should be good, but it isn't. Her default and Eager need a buff. Smoking Daisy needs a tad buff, not sure how, and R&R needs a nerf.
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Ah... I've had my R&R at forge 8 since much lower level than I am now and I didn't know it could one shot. It's at 48% on the HK now and I still need 2 shots (which is still a tish unfair I suppose) unless we're in kissing distance. On Antags that is. It's at forge 16 currently. I went Dan Halen on it and said I wouldn't upgrade until I could "double it!!".
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Ah... I've had my R&R at forge 8 since much lower level than I am now and I didn't know it could one shot. It's at 48% on the HK now and I still need 2 shots (which is still a tish unfair I suppose) unless we're in kissing distance. On Antags that is. It's at forge 16 currently. I went Dan Halen on it and said I wouldn't upgrade until I could "double it!!".
Well what I mean by "one shot" is to put another player in wounded mode instantly with one shot. And it can do this right now because the game is reading a single shot as two or even sometimes three shots in one. So this downs even Council characters in one shot to wounded state. Even without this bug it's still incredibly powerful because you can upgrade the RoF to the point where you can down a person in seconds. in my honest opinion I think it's range it to far for it's damage and RoF being so high.
If you were referring to the smoking Daisy, the only way you can "one shot" wound someone is to unload all of your shells on someone. Otherwise it's normal fire does about 70ish (pre-Hades Betrayal) and only has 3 shots with VERY limited range and slow travel speed.
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As I have said previously, I like the Rock and Roll, I enjoy using it and it has always been her strongest and most flexible option when you factor in it's range. After the bug is fixed it should still be a dangerous weapon.
My main issue with this whole Alicia R&R antag fiasco is that when a player antags as R&R Alicia it sucks all the air out of the room. Unless you are in a coordinated team your about to have a bad day. To be honest I respect every single Antag that doesnt cop out and choose R&R Alicia OR uses a different gun like Smoking Daisy that requires more skill because it is a weapon in a bugged state and it is hurting the game and its further hurting the playerbase.
So my message to Alicia R&R antags who wanna 'nuke noobs' is this. You are using a bugged gun that gives you an unfair advantage in the game and is not working as intended. Doing this is turning people away and hurting the game. If you care at all about the future of it maybe try out a different character sometimes to run antag with. At the end of the day everyone makes their own decisions and your gonna play the way you want to but if your wanting Raiders to last it wouldnt hurt to hold off until the next patch before you resume the nuking of noobs.
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Fact of the matter is it is taking to long to correct this bug. While I agree with everyone that Alicia is a decent character and rock n roll being her most if not only viable weapon it would benefit everyone if they would just drop a hot patch to correct it.
I've been on the receiving end of it one to many times myself and it is becoming annoying when every antagonist you encounter is either push gun Konstantin or rock n roll Alicia. Not that either can't be dealt with but a major headache overall.
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Just tried the "fixed" R&R on Low Blow against 165 Tag... Konsti. 2nd time in 2 days. Same player. R&R was bugged last time I played this person. Same outcome both times. 1st map was No Res. They hit me twice with whatever the hell weapon that is and I'm crawlin. Or, crawl, push, fall, die. So I think I get why you wanted Alicia fixed. Spayed. Neutered. She was too formidable against your fave... Who seems to be just as cheap as you say she was. Hmm... Pots are always callin kettles black I suppose. I hadn't seen anyone Tag with him like that or maybe it was the weapon, either way now we gotta fix him too I guess. See what you start with all the whining. You're not supposed to win every game. Anything forever and always has this rule. No one ever is 1000 and 0. It's Ok to lose sometimes. If you're only playing for rewards then how would you ever enjoy this game. Agree or disagree with any one of you, if we are ever on a team I'm still gonna give my all and try my best to have as many backs as I can. It's just gonna be a bit harder now folks. I'm fine with hard. Sorry for whoever isn't.
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So I think I get why you wanted Alicia fixed. Spayed. Neutered. She was too formidable against your fave... Who seems to be just as cheap as you say she was. Hmm... Pots are always callin kettles black I suppose. I hadn't seen anyone Tag with him like that or maybe it was the weapon, either way now we gotta fix him too I guess.
I'm not sure I understand what this is in reference to? Who are you directing this at?
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Just Konsti Tags in general. This player I haven't seen in the forums. But there is another who plays Special K on here, just not as a Tag. So I got my fun Raidering nuts cut off and my full on team saving abilities shot to poo... But at least every ones favorite Russian accent havin but not from Russia robot man gets to stink us all up with his synthetic f'n innards (lol) all the more. Yeah maybe he was from what was once called Russia but we don't know a thing about Earth's geo political climate in this story. Just BP n sorta Mars. So he's probably just a robot from Saturn with a head who liked the accent as the lore seemed to state. Anyway... I've got beers to drink and Tags to molest. See you on the Broken Planet. Xoxo
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So I think I get why you wanted Alicia fixed. Spayed. Neutered. She was too formidable against your fave... Who seems to be just as cheap as you say she was. Hmm... Pots are always callin kettles black I suppose. I hadn't seen anyone Tag with him like that or maybe it was the weapon, either way now we gotta fix him too I guess.
I'm not sure I understand what this is in reference to? Who are you directing this at?
I think what he's saying is that he played Alicia with the new R&R and got killed by Konstantin with Tolchock. He's refering to me using Konstantin with tolchock and still losing to the bugged R&R and that Konstantin is my favorite and that I'm calling the kettle black. I hope he corrects me if I'm wrong.
But let me respond and correct him. Konstantin is NOT my favorite and I do believe the Tolshock is a bit OP as well a she does. Ironically Alicia was my favorite, but it wasn't the R&R Alicia, it was the SD Alicia I played all the time before the R&R made SD obsolete. I used Tolshock because it seems the only thing that has a chance to stop Alicia with R&R.
I would suggest he keep away from edges as it can push you off. I don't think it two shots though, I've never hit a person with two bullets with Tolchock and wounded them so I'm wondering if he means two burst of fire. I don't know if it does too much damage, because a lot could depend on weapon build and level disparity between Raider and Antag. The R&R was on hit wounding even when the Alicia player was a mere level 40 and the opponent was 150+.
I think he's upset the gun got a nerf. I'm very happy it was nerfed. But haven't felt its effect in game yet so will reserve my judgement until then.
But you know Draco, this all may be a moot point it they bring in Arena, eh? ;)
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It still absolutely wastes half the characters in the game. With full dynamic and hero killer on it can fire so fast there isn't a lot you can do. It needs either the spread or range dropping.
Pretty much every antagonist uses it. Even if downed they can take you out before you reach them.
I know Konstantin with Tolchok is annoying too, but at least you can hit him with long range shots.
It's not unbeatable I know, but playing against someone when the MMR difference is quite high makes life a chore and you will lose more often than not. Although its not as bad on the more open maps.
On console as you can't aim as quickly it's even more irritating as Alicia is really hard to hit in the air due to the aiming acceleration kicking in when following her and throwing your aim off.
How good your team needs to be to counter it compared to how easy it is to abuse is a tad unfair.
Going up against the same guy 4 times in a row with a 5% plus MMR difference, when they are using rock and roll is the very definition of unfun on the double agent level.
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I just had an antag last night with R&R. I think the Alicia was somewhere in the upper double digits. I was 130ish and playing Iune on Hanging by a Thread using Sigh with the fast recharge card. I think it's good now, it didn't one shot me and I was still standing after one shot, BUT, I was also considerably higher level than her. She would make quick work of me if I didn't stun lock her with Sigh, that was the ONLY way I survived. I still think the range it too long for a weapon with that damage and fire rate. Compared to all the other weapons in the game, the range OR fire rate seems unjustified.
Sure, Harec can hit for 1k with Aura Mortis, but he has to hit the head AND he only gets one shot and has to reload. Sure Konstantin can chew someone up with Tolchock at a decent range to, but he's slow and easy to hit and is not up in the air like Alicia flying around. Sure Bloody Marry can murder people, but Doldren is VERY fragile and isn't mobile.
I think the R&R's damage is fine, the range is kind of absurd for the "shot gun" specialists of the game. It's hitting 2.5 times a second at 90 points, it's still a tad bit much for two people on equal grounds and one of them NOT an Alicia with R&R. It's manageable when you out-level her now, as in my case, but she still hurt me bad and I still had to be careful; NOTE: I was way higher level than her. But when there is a level disparity that advantages the R&R Alicia player I feel that it's pain will still be felt.
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Well just built Alicia's starting weapon at level 25. My lord it's awful. With max points in caliber it hits for 30 damage. It can't kill a wardog grunt with a full clip! Oh and to add insult to injury it has damage fall off too. My level 0 rock and roll outclasses it in every way and doesn't seem to suffer from damage fall off. No wonder nobody uses any of her other guns.
All her guns aside from rnr need looking at as they are all bad. I thought the idea was every gun should be viable?
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Well just built Alicia's starting weapon at level 25. My lord it's awful. With max points in caliber it hits for 30 damage. It can't kill a wardog grunt with a full clip! Oh and to add insult to injury it has damage fall off too. My level 0 rock and roll outclasses it in every way and doesn't seem to suffer from damage fall off. No wonder nobody uses any of her other guns.
All her guns aside from rnr need looking at as they are all bad. I thought the idea was every gun should be viable?
Smoking Daisy is fun but not practical and yeah the rest of her guns are a dumpster fire in comparison to RnR.
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So you wAnt old rnr back no chance...
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Oh god no I don't want the old rnr back I want the current toned down if anything.
I want her other guns to be improved so they are worth using.
For Novera it's rubbish damage can be kept if the critical rate gets increased to about 36-40%.
The Eager should have more damage or bullets, so if you land a full clip on something it's dead.
Smoking Daisy should have a faster firing rate and one more bullet.
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Oh god no I don't want the old rnr back I want the current toned down if anything.
I want her other guns to be improved so they are worth using.
For Novera it's rubbish damage can be kept if the critical rate gets increased to about 36-40%.
The Eager should have more damage or bullets, so if you land a full clip on something it's dead.
Smoking Daisy should have a faster firing rate and one more bullet.
This is a good suggestion. I would keep the damage for R&R the same but give it way more drop off from range. It should hit for 30 past half it's range.
The suggestions for Novera and Eager were good. I think smoking daisy should have no damage drop off and do as much as R&R does now. The range for the Smoking Daisy is so fricken short and it projectile speed is so slow, you would think it does the most damage of all her guns, but the gun that has the FURTHEST range, bounces off walls AND has one of the highest fire rates of her weapons does the most? O_o? I think the balance should be that the R&R does medium damage of all her guns since it has so many other advantages and that the Smoking Daisy does the most, since it should pay off when you actually do get a hit in from it's molasses bullets.
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Anyone that has maxed out her weapons understands why R&R is the go-to, I've said it like 100 times Alicia has the worst arsenal in the game, outside of the R&R itself.
If you want to play Alicia, you play R&R or you're not gonna be much help... unless you are really good at dropping bombs with the Daisy, but as we all know, as a GUN, that shoots bullets, it's one of the worst in the game.
It's not that R&R is OP, it's that all her other guns are so bad they aren't even worth pressing the fire button on. People always assume when they see the same gun all the time, it must be "OP" but perhaps instead, it's just the only viable weapon.
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It still needs damage drop off. Compare it to other characters weapons in the game and you will see it has a nearly full house compared to some of the other character's weapons that are considered good. but you are correct to say her other guns suck all the same.
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I'd honestly rather see every other gun in the game improve their damage falloff. Bullets don't lose half their velocity at 25 meters! Doldren can't shoot 10 feet away without *massive* damage falloff, Dolores acts like a shotgun that's sawed off right at the chambers and has no barrel, so many weapons are super short range. Barrier was spitting 6 damage at range on the stream. It's supposed to hit like 30-50.
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Rock and roll definitely should have drop off like nearly every other shotgun based weapon in the game has.
Another thing is how bright and screen filling the shots are. At time it almost acts as a smokescreen as all you see is orange!
Again most antagonists are still picking her and that gun over all the other characters with the exception of Tolchok Konstantin. There has to be a reason and it's that it makes it a lot easier to win. You need to pick certain characters to counter it against a good player, which maybe the worst set for actually completing the mission itself.
Tolchok Konstantin I don't feel is as hard to deal with.
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I agree Draco, but if we're going to leave R&R alone with no damage drop off with that incredible range compared to the rest of her weapons and still deal 90 per shot then this means the other guns should do even MORE damage to compensate for their shorter range, especially Smoking Daisy, but would you be ok with SD doing 100+ per shot?
Regardless of the values, remember that it's about balance relative to it's counterparts. To me it doesn't make any sense to have the gun that has the MOST range, bounce and a relatively high RoF to do the most damage as well. It has too many pros and no cons. We have to ask ourselves, what is the use of the other weapons? So, the other weapons need a buff. But even if we buffed them would the R&R still be the best?
Ask yourself this. How would you buff her other guns to make them compete with the R&R? If the result is that the R&R is still better then it has TOO MANY pros. Be honest, it has literally no cons to it at all, none, nada. This means particular features of the other guns would have to be buffed beyond the limit of the R&R to be seen as valuable in at least a niche way.
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I feel the damage fall off on a lot of the guns is that way to push you into playing a certain way with that particular character.
That being said certain guns really do suck such as Dolores. It basically can't hit any objective that you can't walk up to.
Shtorm is another gun that suffers greatly from this, especially since it has a long long long cool down if overheated.
I would like it if every gun was viable instead of the newly released ones for most characters.
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Yes, Daisy should do way more damage! It was the biggest disappointment when I finally got mine and then tried out what was at that time, one of the rarest guns in the game. It's currently not a good gun at all, like I keep saying, it's currently just a tool to bomb people, you're Ayana if Ayana could only drop mines instead of shoot them. Hell the shots could hit 200 damage and it would still be questionable, due to how stupidly slow and short the projectiles are.
Yes I keep saying all of her weapons need to be buffed above and beyond because they are just that awful. Novera has a pretty nice wide pattern and can hit big groups, but that doesn't matter if it tickles them. If it had less range but could pop off a group of enemies with higher damage, it would be a viable choice vs. R&R. It's also a starting gun and starting weapons need to entice new players by not making them feel like weaklings. Other guns should be strong and fun too, but the starting weapons in this game are woefully terrible, with the exception of Hans and Kon to some degree.
And Eager should kill anything in the game that you hit with all of its shots, period. You're mag-dumping a shotgun... why is ANYTHING standing after that? Sheppard also mag dumps but it's an actual good gun that can pepper a map in death or wreak havok in tight spaces. Eager currently has no reason to ever be played.
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I feel the damage fall off on a lot of the guns is that way to push you into playing a certain way with that particular character.
That being said certain guns really do suck such as Dolores. It basically can't hit any objective that you can't walk up to.
Shtorm is another gun that suffers greatly from this, especially since it has a long long long cool down if overheated.
I would like it if every gun was viable instead of the newly released ones for most characters.
But it's a balancing act. Every weapon should be viable, of course. But balance is created by having pros and cons, strengths and weaknesses of weapons. Some weapons have no weaknesses. And if you're ok with weapons having no weaknesses, then you have to make all raiders use the same weapon. Then you lose uniqueness and variety.
So I have a question for you and Draco, in an ideal situation where all of Alicia's guns were decent. What advantage should the other guns have over R&R? and What should R&R be known for and what would it's weaknesses be? Go through each gun, Novera, Eager, Smoking Daisy and of course R&R. This isn't a diatribe, but an honest question.
EDIT: I was a bit late on this posting, I think Draco answered some of this in the above post. But if there is anything further to add, or if anyone else would like to add what they think each gun should be at, this would be helpful.
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I feel like I'm repeating my last post, again, but....
Novera has a wide spread, it's good at hitting a lot more enemies than R&R which is comparatively pretty tight (unless you bounce it in a tight space, which can also harm Alicia). It also shoots and reloads faster.
Eager SHOULD pump out massive burst damage. Reduce the recoil a bit as well to make it more reliable.
SD needs more damage, faster projectiles, more range.... it holds 3 shots, it needs to do it all to justify such a small magazine just because it has a special alt fire, which is no longer all that special with Ayana and Barrier being in the game.
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What is the weakness of R&R though? Because even with the biffs to the other weapons you suggest, the R&R is in the "Goldilocks zone" of having just enough spread, just enough RoF, just enough range and more than enough damage that even if A) The Novera hitting more targets, B) Eager doing massive burst and C) The SD doing the most damage, say 100+, with more range at faster speed, the R&R still is the best bet.
the reason I say this is because once you do good damage at a safe range compared to the other weapons. So why would I choose SD if it hits harder when I can be further away with decent enough damage at a higher rate of fire with R&R? Why would I choose Novera if the spread on R&R is STILL decent enough relative to the more tons of damage I do with R&R? AND at a safer distance? Eager probably would be good if you could blast a fool with one clip though. This is why I think it need damage drop off a bit to give it a weakness compared to the other guns. In your example you gave, the buffs you gave were all really good, but the weapons still all had weaknesses. R&R still not having any relevant weaknesses, again, being in the "Goldilocks" state where, in your scenario, it may not be the best (well range), but it is damn good enough in RoF, damage, spread and range that it is better than the rest still.
So I have a new question, what should R&R's weakness be? And do you feel the weakness it has is potent enough to make it balanced with the rest?
I'm sorry to dig your brain here. I'm just trying to surgically get to the root of the weapon and place all the parts on display on these forums so the devs can see. Thanks for playing along.
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How about lowering the damage (perhaps 30% reduction), but then playing up the ricochet effect so you can really bounce it around corners and stuff. That would help differentiate from the other guns plus not make it useless. Successful bounce shots could hit twice so it's damage potential isn't thrown out of the window.
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R&R used to be weak in fire rate and reload. Even at max dynamic, the reload is still a bit on the slow side for her fast playstyle, but Daisy is even slower and I haven't played the other 2 recently enough to remember. That reminds me that Daisy needs a faster reload. I don't actually feel like the R&R spread is that wide in comparison to other shotguns in the game, it's just visually confirmed by the bright shot. It can also hurt the shooter if it bounces back at her. I'd also say max ammo capacity is a weakness of the gun, it's easy to burn through your ammo reserves quickly.
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I think the reach is a bit too far. She can shoot you from across the gap on Hanging By a Thread on phase one. It's kind of ridiculous for a close to medium range character/weapon.
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R&R reload is on the slow side, and the clip is pretty small, now that its potential triple damage bug has been fixed i don’t see how it stands out any more that weapons like tolchok, wisdom, or Rak’s rare (forgot the name) just to name a few, if R&R were really in “need “of a nerf then the previous mentioned weapons would also need one (which I’m not saying should be the case, well maybe tolchok…).
The idea of lowering damage but adding bounce sounds like it could work and be fun.
Level9Drow why do you even care about nerfing that weapon so badly because of pvp, aren’t you also a pve player anyways…
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R&R reload is on the slow side, and the clip is pretty small, now that its potential triple damage bug has been fixed i don’t see how it stands out any more that weapons like tolchok, wisdom, or Rak’s rare (forgot the name) just to name a few, if R&R were really in “need “of a nerf then the previous mentioned weapons would also need one (which I’m not saying should be the case, well maybe tolchok…).
The idea of lowering damage but adding bounce sounds like it could work and be fun.
Level9Drow why do you even care about nerfing that weapon so badly because of pvp, aren’t you also a pve player anyways…
Well as a PvE player I get preyed upon by PvP players, so it's still important to me. Because I want to know what will be used on my face and how hard.
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This topic is over dudes/dudettes... They fixed the bug. Leave the rest alone. Lycus' pepper pot does more damage from further away than R&R on Aneska. That is BS if you think her range is too far. Please stop it. Konsti's Tolchok, or whatever, is so much more a nuisance than R&R ever was. The push and he has the bubble that also pushes... Wtf? You just don't like to lose Drow. But it is a part of life and also coincidentally this game. Weird concept I know but it is a real thing. Stop trying to dictate how people play Alicia. Her gun is fixed. If you wanna nerf it then we nerf all the others as well. Stop. Just stop. Would it make you happy if they just removed her from the game altogether? Cause the way you talk it feels like she's your only competition. Sad. I could beat her when she Tagged me and I'm way lower than you. Fight fire with fire baby! Just pick something else to hate on cause I don't wanna stop playing this game because of your complaining about losing to Alicia (which you can't even do now, and I haven't played against an Alicia Tag since the fix by the by) so put her to bed. Close this f'n thread and let's enjoy this amazing game forever as is. *this is not a personal attack but a rebuttal to excessive complaining about nothing.
I still think you rock! Just shut up about my girl already. I don't get what your beef is at this point. She's weak AF now but I still find a way to save my team. Though it takes 6 shots now instead of 4... 1st world problems right;)
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Well I found a really effective counter against her. Rak's rare gun the DPY-2M coupled with the rare health regeneration while shooting card. The projectiles the gun fires hits her really easily when flying and it takes 2-3 shots to kill.
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well, R&R been nerfed and i have to admit... I cant see much of a difference so... TOLD YOUUU LOL. Next R&R nerf petition you guys should hire an orchestra but just violin players so your petition's seem sad enough for the devs to care. Now if you excuse me there's 4 scrubs waiting to get obliterated by my beautiful R&R Lol
P.S. Git Gud alicia haters/scrubs
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This topic is over dudes/dudettes... They fixed the bug. Leave the rest alone. Lycus' pepper pot does more damage from further away than R&R on Aneska. That is BS if you think her range is too far. Please stop it. Konsti's Tolchok, or whatever, is so much more a nuisance than R&R ever was. The push and he has the bubble that also pushes... Wtf? You just don't like to lose Drow. But it is a part of life and also coincidentally this game. Weird concept I know but it is a real thing. Stop trying to dictate how people play Alicia. Her gun is fixed. If you wanna nerf it then we nerf all the others as well. Stop. Just stop. Would it make you happy if they just removed her from the game altogether? Cause the way you talk it feels like she's your only competition. Sad. I could beat her when she Tagged me and I'm way lower than you. Fight fire with fire baby! Just pick something else to hate on cause I don't wanna stop playing this game because of your complaining about losing to Alicia (which you can't even do now, and I haven't played against an Alicia Tag since the fix by the by) so put her to bed. Close this f'n thread and let's enjoy this amazing game forever as is. *this is not a personal attack but a rebuttal to excessive complaining about nothing.
I still think you rock! Just shut up about my girl already. I don't get what your beef is at this point. She's weak AF now but I still find a way to save my team. Though it takes 6 shots now instead of 4... 1st world problems right;)
Well I figured you'd appreciate out of the box PvP. They can beat me through the game, but what if I can beat them by changing the game? That would be an even more epic and permanent win. Where's your competitive spirit?
Oh and ScerCkan doesn't agree with you. According to the post above by him it still needs a nerf, based on his statement.
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In confused. And last night I was hammered lol. So you're saying that complaining to the devs enough will make them change the game so it's easier for YOU? And subsequently harder for others... I don't see how taking away competition in game is a competitive spirit I guess. Sounds more like a monopoly on winning. Which is good business but also supremely evil, like most business. Hmm... Idk. Whatever I guess. Eventually everyone will quit and you won't be able to play and then can't win. So long term, bad strategy. Short term, sure I guess.
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Since the "Nerf" of the R&R I have noticed less Alicia Antags. I see her more on stages where her abilities can really take advantage of the terrain as opposed to every mission all the time. She is still a force to be reckoned with but the slight damage decrease does mean players have a little more of a chance of putting up a fight against her. It also means the antagonists using Alicia need to up their game to be successful in the mission when their first shot isnt an instant crit state. Matches have felt more balanced and Im pleased overall.
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In confused. And last night I was hammered lol. So you're saying that complaining to the devs enough will make them change the game so it's easier for YOU? And subsequently harder for others... I don't see how taking away competition in game is a competitive spirit I guess. Sounds more like a monopoly on winning. Which is good business but also supremely evil, like most business. Hmm... Idk. Whatever I guess. Eventually everyone will quit and you won't be able to play and then can't win. So long term, bad strategy. Short term, sure I guess.
i was being sarcastic, byt the way. But sarcasm aside and frank honesty here.
I would agree with you, but I honestly feel the R&R is still a bit too OP. I ONLY think it's range is a bit much. I think it should at least have some damage drop off. Please think criticly of the weapons and it's overall stats; Damage, Range, RoF, Damage Drop Off, and also the fact of who's using it, that matters to. If it's used by a flying hard to hit target that ALSO matters.
for example, the Schleuder itself wasn't all that terrible of a weapon. It was very situational, and had a specific condition in witch it woud shine. But in the hands of Ginebra, a hero that can get away ANY time she wants, it was devastating. So a combination of a weapon and a characters ability can make for an OP situation while the two pieces by themselves wouldn't be considered OP.
In the case of Rock and Roll, if someone like Ayana Kwena or Rak Mayura has the Rock and Roll (in it's current form) it would be a strong weapon but the character could still be easily defeatable, because you have to take in consideration mobility. but in the hands of Alicia you have the ability to basically carpet bomb your opponents with maximum lethal force with absolutely no consequence. Sure, Tolchock can knock her down, but she regenerates. All you have to do as an Alicia is fire from the air but also where you will be behind cover, like on the map a Breath of Hope. So even if you are knocked out of the air, you fall and heal again. The problem is that there is no weakness. The Alicia should be forced to come a little close for max damage. If she's sending nukes from the safety of distance and cover it isn't entirely fair, while Harec can but only with one bullet, and 60 health to boot.
Now before you respond, I will admit that I have been seeing a lot less Alicia players. Not only that, but the ones I've seen we've been able to actually defeat, but it feels like pulling teeth. And a lot of them are so spoiled by the R&R that they just give up now because they have no triple damage bug to carry them. So I may very well be wrong. But if I am then nearly 80% of the rest of the weapons need to be buffed. But we have to be careful here because then we will get into a power creep and AL weapons will be one shotting other players.
I'm just putting my thoughts out here for consideration. I can deal and strategize around Tolchock players. Kons is slow and immobile. And the Tolchock really isn't that dangerous at far distances, Javelin Ginebra destroys him, he's so slow. Lichbogen Kuzmans can be dealt with, Melee Doldrens, etc.. all have weaknesses and can be strategized around.
Even when I lose to these character I feel it's my (our teams) fault, either I got too bold, I underestimated Kuzman, I got too close to Lycus, I was too greedy against Konstantin, etc... But Alicia with R&R? I got nothin. She has great range, high damage, no drop off, high RoF, high defense through mobility and regen. Whenever we do actually win, I have no idea how, it's usually because the Alicia's were overconfident and spoiled and got too close and made mistakes and we got lucky. But what I know is that it was NOTHING that we did to beat her. There was no special strategy, no special idea. You either all drop what your doing and compromise the mission and mob her, or you get picked apart. There is NO other character you have to mob, only Alicia with R&R. Other antagonists you can have one or two people on antag duty, but it should be self evident that there is something noteworthy going on if a single character demands the attention of the whole team whereas ALL the other characters do not.
Again, I ONLY suggest damage drop off, nothing else. Force some risk from her. Every other character has to risk.
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Sounds like maybe you just need a decent Alicia player on your team;) I still almost always pick her. Except for the times when I gotta do your trick for the baby Harecs, then someone else almost always grabs her. I make do. But yeah, I spend my time with Alicia on a team taking care of Antags if any, so the rest can hopefully complete objectives. I've seen a lot or Antag rage quits. Which always makes me smile. This is the only reason I'm so passionate about not nerfing her into the ground. I can be murderous with her in PVE and I don't think I've played her as a tag for a long long time. I did however make 4 amazing players eat crow with Shae last night. That's even more satisfying. Only part I hate is when people get cocky. They don't seem to understand sportsmanship. Then when they lose it just makes them seem more stupid lol. Back to work:(
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Sounds like maybe you just need a decent Alicia player on your team;) I still almost always pick her. Except for the times when I gotta do your trick for the baby Harecs, then someone else almost always grabs her. I make do. But yeah, I spend my time with Alicia on a team taking care of Antags if any, so the rest can hopefully complete objectives. I've seen a lot or Antag rage quits. Which always makes me smile. This is the only reason I'm so passionate about not nerfing her into the ground. I can be murderous with her in PVE and I don't think I've played her as a tag for a long long time. I did however make 4 amazing players eat crow with Shae last night. That's even more satisfying. Only part I hate is when people get cocky. They don't seem to understand sportsmanship. Then when they lose it just makes them seem more stupid lol. Back to work:(
I actually feel bad for them when they rage quit. Because it means the situation is somehow unfun, or there is something wrong. I don't think we should be in a situation where that occurs in the first place. Even Alicia R&R players who rage quit, post nerf, I feel bad. Because they relied on the bug so much and expected 90% win rate they can't handle a 70% win chance. We all know that if they didn't give up they would STILL be likely to win, even post nerf. Spoiled I guess.
But I need to dial it back. As aggravating as they can be. I have been getting more wins than losses in the game in general, even though Alicia antags can be hell. So I think it may be a dead horse. The "perception" of R&R's nerf seems to be enough to dishearten R&R antagonists, even though it's still terribly effective. So you hardly wee them anyways. And maybe that was enough.
The NEW problem now is you have to throw games after a certain MMR. So I have to go friendly antag for multiple games in a row to get my MMR back down. but then 4 stack raiders are doing the same thing and surrender and bring my MMR back up, LOL. So weird the situation we find ourselves in.
But I think it may all be a moot point. Arena mode may make it all moot.
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I still don't think it's OP post-bug fix. Played with it on HBaT last night at 60% difficulty and I couldn't even kill the wardogs dropped off with any reliability, sometimes only killing 1 of them unloading the full mag. If they all clumped up like the top dropship, I could sometimes get them all, but the one near the barrier is always scattered more and if any shots missed they would survive (and heal). Mag dump did 1/3rd of a Hades berserker's health.
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Agreed! I'm reloading a lot more than I feel I should be. Could be on me I suppose. But it only feels op against locals... As all weapons should;)
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Areana mode?? Is this a thing or just a hopeful community desire? And with people nowadays needing safe spaces and just being general babies, I don't feel anything but joy when they rage quit. If they can't take the heat get outta kitchen kinda thing. I toughed it out and got pretty decent... And no, not just with Alicia. I don't want to play with quitters anyway. Abandoning an mpossible mission though is absolutely acceptable.
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I still don't think it's OP post-bug fix. Played with it on HBaT last night at 60% difficulty and I couldn't even kill the wardogs dropped off with any reliability, sometimes only killing 1 of them unloading the full mag. If they all clumped up like the top dropship, I could sometimes get them all, but the one near the barrier is always scattered more and if any shots missed they would survive (and heal). Mag dump did 1/3rd of a Hades berserker's health.
It's weird, and I agree. We have a unique situation where there has to be balance for weapons between them working on other players, and then working on AI, but AI difficulty changes based on MMR. So we have to have weapons that kill AI in a reasonable manner, but since AI have so much more health than players the weapons become exceptionally lethal to other players.
so if you nerf or balance a weapon to make for fair play between PvP it will be too weak against any AI above 40% MMR, but if you make it balanced for AI above 40% it will be too strong against players. It's really baffling to me, to be honest. I get your concern and agree. I just don't know the solution. I think it was a mistake to make the AI so much different from the characters in the first place. it cause inconsolable balancing issues.
EDIT: And to me this is more of an MMR AI problem than a weapon problem. I think that enemies at higher MMR shouldn't necessarily have more health, but do more damage akin to what players do, move faster and become more accurate, maybe more numbers and competent (stumbling less, calling on their coms less, better CQC reaction). But giving them more health makes for a lot of issues.
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This is the problem with Alicia right here. She isn't that great against the AI at greater difficulties but she is really good against other players for all the reasons Level9drow states in his post. The gun can still deal 900 damage in about 2 seconds while moving through the air to another player. I also feel due to the wall jumps that if you are downed you can't really fight back as your aiming takes a hit due to the reduced movement speed.
It's not unbeatable by any means but again as Level9drow says the full team has to stop what they are doing and get her or you will die very quickly. You can't really restrict her movement by positioning your team well either as she can wall jump through or past.
Some characters cannot do anything to really retaliate either, Loaht can't do anything unless in beast mode for example. Outside of the hook Ayana has a bad time too, you are usually downed before the tension bar fills. Any character with a projectile based weapon rather than hitscan will struggle especially on the consoles.
These issues are also present when playing as the antagonist against an Alicia on the raiders team.
But on the flip side it takes forever to kill any enemy with her at high MMR.
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Yes Drow the main problem with finding the right balance with weapon damage lies in having to deal with the mmr level of enemies, never players. Players will die the same way to an exploding headshot from Iune's Wisdom, but at 60 mmr it takes me 3 friggin headshots with a max forged Wisdom built for max lethality to kill them. That is beyond ridiculous. Make the enemies less clumsy, less likely to jam their weapons, increase dropship rate, increase their numbers, but for the love of Christ if an engineer needs two headshots on hanging by a thread then I dont know what else Mercurysteam could do to make me feel underpowered on the broken planet.
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Areana mode?? Is this a thing or just a hopeful community desire? And with people nowadays needing safe spaces and just being general babies, I don't feel anything but joy when they rage quit. If they can't take the heat get outta kitchen kinda thing. I toughed it out and got pretty decent... And no, not just with Alicia. I don't want to play with quitters anyway. Abandoning an mpossible mission though is absolutely acceptable.
Here look at Draco's post:
https://www.raidersofthebrokenplanet.com/community/index.php?topic=1651.msg8443#msg8443
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Yes Drow the main problem with finding the right balance with weapon damage lies in having to deal with the mmr level of enemies, never players. Players will die the same way to an exploding headshot from Iune's Wisdom, but at 60 mmr it takes me 3 friggin headshots with a max forged Wisdom built for max lethality to kill them. That is beyond ridiculous. Make the enemies less clumsy, less likely to jam their weapons, increase dropship rate, increase their numbers, but for the love of Christ if an engineer needs two headshots on hanging by a thread then I dont know what else Mercurysteam could do to make me feel underpowered on the broken planet.
This is why I always hate seeing players asking for nerfs on things that WE ALL USE. It's why I fight pretty hard against ALL of these posts and why I went to find out why R&R seemed "so OP" when I don't remember it ever being a problem for the past several months that it has existed, until just recently over the last few weeks. It's not OP, it's a very above-average gun, but nothing special in any way.
Alicia falls into the same category as Hans. High mobility is good against players because mobility is power. Againt AI, not so much, because they just hitscan you to death with their infinite range perfect tracking death machines. But Alicia and Hans can move fast into player engagement while pelting them with damage and take them down quickly. But against massive bullet sponges that out-tank and out-damage them, they are pretty much useless. I consider myself a main Hans player, and I know that he's just a liability over a certain MMR.
Nerfs are stupid.
(Except for Tolchok, which is also stupid).
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What would you say if they nerfed the health on AI and just upped the accuracy, speed and skill of the AI? Would it be ok then? Because if you're making the "mobility is good" then ALL characters would need the same mobility, otherwise the only good characters are the ones with mobility. OR they need to make some incentive for characters with low or no mobility. Because as it is you have weapons that kill other players too fast. Good weapons in the hands of characters with high mobility. You're suggestion would be buff all weapons. Then we have power creep and ALL weapons can instakill ALL characters and then there is no more value in characters like Harec, shae, Doldren, etc... Then there is also no more value in 5th Council because damage reduction will no longer matter. Then the ONLY characters that will matter will be the regenerating Wardogs becasue all weapons instakill, because AI health. This does NOT sound very fun to me.
Buffing all weapons isn't the answer. Nerfing AI health is the answer.
As far as R&R there is no risk for using it. ALL other weapons have risk either because of the characters limitation (Konstantin/Tolchock) or the weapons has weakness. I personally feel there is no risk to playing R&R Alicia, and that to facilitate risk damage falloff should be implemented, because the range, in conjunction with mobility, is a bit ludicrous.
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Characters like Harec and Shae have long range, since most weapons have absurd falloff, so they will still have a use. Harec also has high mobility with Stalk, Shae is stealthy. Their value does not even lie with their damage, since 5th council out-damages and out-survives them.
I also never said "buff all weapons" nor implied it. I said stop nerfing things. Some weapons very clearly need buffs, but I never implied everything does.
And yeah, nerf AI, if anything.
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Characters like Harec and Shae have long range, since most weapons have absurd falloff, so they will still have a use. Harec also has high mobility with Stalk, Shae is stealthy. Their value does not even lie with their damage, since 5th council out-damages and out-survives them.
I also never said "buff all weapons" nor implied it. I said stop nerfing things. Some weapons very clearly need buffs, but I never implied everything does.
And yeah, nerf AI, if anything.
To be fair, I'm not saying you did say buff all weapons. But it has to be implied if you are saying not to nerf weapons like R&R, because MOST other weapons suck compared to it. You would have to buff them all or have a situation where we have now, where most weapons are made obsolete and therefore characters are obsolete because the only characters people should be playing is Alicia, Konstantin, Ginebra and Kuzman, otherwise why play anyone else? Their weapons are to good, and if as you say (which is fine) they're not OP, this would imply all other weapons are underpowered.
How would you resolve the disparity of weapon viability in it's current state without buffing the other weapons or nerfing the powerful ones?
Don't let the emotionless typing mislead you, I am not arguing, but asking a question. Again, not a diatribe. I fully accept I may get an answer that will make me think otherwise.
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All characters are viable in certain roles and tend to have weapons that work. Every character also has good and bad weapons. I don't agree that 5th council + Alicia is the best or only viable team.
Even this team has plenty of weapons that are weak and not really viable. If you take Schtorm+S.Bogen+Ingrid+Eager you're gonna have a bad day ;)
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Well you may be right and I may need to just wait and see what happens next. More characters will be added, more weapons, more updates. I need to think about this as well. I'm just positing questions to inspire discussion the devs will read, and not necessarily towards my opinions either.
I may not have room to talk because I haven't reached 150 yet and have 30+ blueprints on hold and many of them are below 20th level forge level. But we can agree on AI health.
I think it's so funny how you see people playing peaceful antag just to lower MMR. And sometimes, when I am playing peaceful antag to gain affinity and lower MMR I see entire teams at high MMR surrendering as soon as they can. What a strange situation we are in when highly skilled players of 160+ have to lower their MMR because either the AI is too goddamn hard (and doesn't reward you for it) and/or you simply can't find a game in solo queue at that high of an MMR.
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The MMR struggle is real. :-\
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The MMR struggle is real. :-\
I agree - the other day my MMR was at 57, somebody would think it's not that high, but I waited more than 20 min. to find matches (you don't always have the opportunity to play in a team). I don't have that much time to wait that long for every match to start (I also got other stuff to do). Then I played a few "peaceful" antag matches and my MMR is back in the forties, now it's more bearable again.
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Thank god for the ability to play peaceful antagonists. The only other option would be to throw games, which is fine if you are in a 4 stack and they all agree, but you really can't do this in solo queue without pissing people off. I hope it never becomes a "bad thing" to peacefully antag. I don't imagine Raiders raging on the keyboard reporting for, "HE LET ME HAVE INCREASED REWARDS AND DID NOT ATTACK ME AND THIS RESULTED IN ME WINNING, PLEASE BAN!!", but you never know.
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There is one guy in the discord who *hates* afk antags, and tries to make games longer if he sees that. I really don't understand the logic behind complaining what someone else is doing, or rather, not doing, when it's beneficial to you.
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Yeah I don't get that, especially since a lot of the time people do that is when trying to lower their MMR at 60% everything dies so quick it doesn't make a difference if you spawn or not, which is more apparent on the boss levels. I think it because most teams average about 50%.
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It's been a while and a a few post "bug fix" R&R so I've had time to feel the pain of it. Just bumpin the post again. Wanted to state the R&R still needs a nerf. Too much range and damage to high, you are wounded before she even lands. Again I suggest giving it some falloff damage to make her actually have to take a risk like everyone else. As long as I keep getting cheezed by them I don't think I'm gonna let this one go. I'll never let it rest.
Back to plan one, surrender when you see it's an R&R. It's a waste of my time. No fun, no weakness, no cons, no chance.
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Alicia is always going to be a hard character to balance because of her mobility making her hard to hit. Which means she will always be good at PvP but without strong weapons will be not great at PvE. When you fix for one side you break the other.
I am dreading the reveal of her new gun with the power creep we have seen on some of the more recent guns!
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nope, with the glitch fixed this thread should die.... You can't just keep screaming to appease yourself to see everything you personally dislike nerfed.
We fought an Alicia last night with 3 players (4th was baby Harec who was just worthless) and R&R was brutal, but we also didn't have the right team setup for Breath of Hope. Rak's Sheppard is awful at hitting airborne Alicia (I shoulda brought DPY :( Or Kuzmann), as is the Daisy, and R&R goes through Lycus Shield. Interaction with shields should be adjusted, but the weapon doesn't need to be weakened, or shortened, etc. Play R&R yourself at high level MMR and you'll agree it doesn't feel all that strong.
for the billionth time, stop asking for nerfs because you get beat in pvp by something. No one has gotten high into the difficulty yet and you just keep asking to make raiders weaker and weaker with every topic of the day :|
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I can only replay with the same thing: Back to plan one, surrender when you see it's an R&R. It's a waste of my time. No fun, no weakness, no cons, no chance.
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I'm absolutely with Draco and Deathprize here... As you knew I would be Drow... Lol. Sorry you still can't beat her and that you find losing to be a waste of your time rather than a learning experience but yeah. This was over a while ago and here you still are crying "make the game easier for ME!". You do realize if it's easier for you it's easier for every one else right? They can't possibly tailor the game just for you. Idk... Maybe stop playing this game and go elsewhere before your constant whining ruins it for everyone else. And for the rest of you who listen to Drow... All lies and manipulation.
He said previously in this thread...
"Well I figured you'd appreciate out of the box PvP. They can beat me through the game, but what if I can beat them by changing the game? That would be an even more epic and permanent win. Where's your competitive spirit?"-Level9Drow
How is changing the game itself anywhere close to being competitive? Basically saying if he makes the game impossible for Antags they'll cease to be a problem for him. That's not competition. Who wants to only fight NPC's ALL the time anyhow?? Gets so boring after a while. The Antag gives it a nice, albeit challenging breakup to the monotony. He wants more "peaceful" Antags so he doesn't have to ever lose. Lied about the rewards being higher for afk Antaging... Who is that dumb to believe that?? Of course the rewards are higher if you actually try at Antaging! It would make no sense to afk and get better rewards. 1500 is the gold you'll get w/out any weapon bonuses. Your score will always be 0.5 and you gain almost twice the xp for winning as the Antag. Currently to afk Tag I have to sit out 2 matches. Roughly 30-40mins depending on the Raiders. If I just put forth an effort and kill everyone... With Shae mind you... I only need to play one match and get my A affinity. Will you always win? F no!! But you will always get more rewards if you try. Don't listen to this Judas!! He just wants us all to sit down for ice cream and be share bares. As long as he gets the biggest share and no one challenges. This game is too much metal for you. Go play Minecraft or something more your speed. Stop manipulating people! This day and age it's too easy... Kinda like Tagging with the R&R used to be;)
Xoxo
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Where's your competitive spirit Triggerman? someone takes opposition OUTSIDE your little box and you can't handle it? This is WAR, get your words out as weapons and fight. And the one with more mastery of language, etiquette, and reasonable argument will win. Deal with it and bring your words to the table in a better way than Hyperbole and Ad Homonym. But don't get mad when someone is combating is thinking outside the box to combat his opponents. One of the best strategies in life conflicts is to step outside your opponents game and beat them on another level outside the understood battlefield.
Now, for the argument against Alicia's gun Rock and Roll, I think they're fairly reasonable:
1. What I am about to say does not mean that I believe Alicia's other weapons are any good. I'm aware that Novera and Eager are very under-powered, and that Smoking Daisy is very niche. But that does not mean a character cannot have an overpowered weapon, try not to think in a linear, black and white fashion. Realize that it's possible for her to have both crappy AND overpowered weapons AT THE SAME TIME.
2. A weapon or item doesn't exist in isolation, it's part of a greater package with the wielders capabilities and opponents. And this is what makes something complete, incomplete, underpowered or overpowered. In the case of the R&R it has good range and fairly nice spread, so it's not hard to miss, and it does a lot of damage with a high RoF. This wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't in combination with Hero Killer and a character who basically flies making it hard to hit her but, since you have to be blind to miss with the spread of R&R, she can usually hit you, over and over and over whilst in the air. This means she can fly over a whole party without running the risk of getting into CQC. She has a high powered gun, with range further than she can jump and is hard to miss with, she risks nothing as other characters in the game who ALSO have good weapons.
Kuzman has Lichbogun but is slow and lumbering and has no mobility. Great weapon balanced by the characters limitations. Same for Konstantin, he has Tolchock, which is a great weapon, but he is also slow and has no mobility. If you are overwhelmed you can, at least, run away from him and heal up. Also ranged characters can hit him since he is so immobile, he has weaknesses which means there is risk. Ginebra has Schleuder and, as we saw, this gun was nerfed and her health in Cougar form was reduced, because it was a powerful combination that was nearly unbeatable. She could wound you, wun up, transform and get your aleph. Now she can't do that as easily because she can die in transformation with only 60 health. She has to risk now, weaknesses as well as strengths. All three of these are examples of characters with strong weapons that are VERY good but have weaknesses and limitations as well that balance their whole "package" out. Compared to other characters in the game Alicia's kit coupled with the R&R is vastly more superior than them and she has very little weaknesses.
3. Numbers, numbers, numbers. The reason the nerfed Ginebra was only partially due to player feedback. You don't REALLY think developers make their decisions based solely on players complaining do you? No, it's also in conjunction with their internal data they record. Now we've all been playing this game for quite a while now. And I see more Alicias now than Ginebras pre nerf. Regardless of your opinions, the data will not lie. Now I'm only guessing here, but I have a feeling that a whole shit ton of Antagonists games are won with Alicia using R&R, more so than Alicia's without R&R (of course because her first two guns are horrible, and no one wants to use SD anymore even though it takes finesse to be badass with it) and also more than ANY other character as antagonists. This is what I've seen in my limitid experience with the game. I'm guessing many of you have, if you're honest, seen the same thing.
To add to this, I'm willing to bet their data will show a disproportionate amount of won games with the R&R, again, more so than any other character in the game. This has weight, whether you like it or not, or whether you agree with it or not. There is a REASON this data will be this way, and as developers they must look to see what this reason is. And it's fairly obvious as I've thoroughly described in point 2 above.
4. Solo Queue and coordination. Much of the arguments against nerfing R&R are, "Well if you can coordinate you have a chance to beat her." Don't be silly, no ones making the argument that she is IMPOSSIBLE to defeat, she's not a constantly glowing yellow indestructible one shotting force. This is hyperbolic. She is overpowerewd, as in most things in gaming, it means that, despite being possible to overcome, she has things stacked in her favor to the point that makes it less likely to beat. But there's something to be said if one character in the game takes the entire concerted effort of a team to beat and absolutely none of the others necessarily do. If that's your argument then how do you explain all the other characters who don't? And then there's the solo queue issue, wherein it's hard to coordinate with the three other players if you are in randoms. Hard to get coordinated against the only character that it takes whole team to beat when you are in randoms. It's also hard to communicate with those randoms when there is no built in chat function, only "come with me", "Need Ammo", "Help" and "ok".
5. "You don't like losing", who does? While I admit I dislike PvP, there is a distinct difference to losing to other characters in this game over losing to R&R. Other characters are actually balanced (now for the most part), so you can form a strategy other then, "She's too powerful let's all zerg her and maybe we'll get a kill.". With other characters you can have two characters on mission duties, one character on adds and another on antag duty, heck maybe two characters on antag duty if the player is good, three is stretching it and four means the character is broken. Other characters I lose to I know why I lost, and it may be because I overextended, didn't play to my strengths, and to the weaknesses of the enemy character, or maybe we had a baby Harec and I should have been more aggressive, maybe the enemy wasn't so skilled but we didn't have enough add control. But with Alicia using R&R, there is nothing I can think of. Just a superior weapon flying in the air dishing out more damage than I can do to her, more accurate because she has spread, and any weapon I would have that also has spread is guaranteed to do less damage or a weapon that cannot reach her (I.E. like Rak's primary weapon). The weapon goes through shields, bounces off walls, there really is little you can do with such a high damage yielding weapon from this high mobility target with a weapon that has little aim skill necessary. So when you lose, you lose because you chose a crappier character, meaning EVERY other character aside from Alicia with R&R. You lose because the character has very little weaknesses, risk very little in order to secure kills and can do so practically uncontested, because R&R along with flying is overpowered, again for the reasons adequately pointed out to in point 2.
6. Solutions. Well we can all agree the first thing would be to buff her other three weapons, although I would say not to the point of R&R. We've already talked about what could be buffed about them. I would like to point out what the problem of R&R is. High damage from good distance from the sky. My suggestion would be either to add a steeper falloff so that she has to come closer and take a risk like all other characters, to have a weakness like the rest of us. If she wants to fire from a distance she can, but the damage will be low, in the 20's and 30's at the far end and maybe 40's and 50's at the medium range and then the big damage up to the closer third, the 90's we all see. Keep in mind she's safe in the air and can reach you very easily with little need for accuracy AND it bounces.
Konstantin can, if he wants, shoot at you from across the map, but it doesn't do much damage, I know because I have a maxed out Tolchock. Harec get's one bullet and has 60 health and is stuck in his perch until he comes back down. Blah blah, etc... other characters have weakness and risk. To balance R&R I say falloff.
7. Final point. The whole, "She finally is good in the game don't nerf her gun!". To that I say that she was good before to. She had Smoking Daisy, and also the other guns need to be buffed instead.
There's also another point of absurdity to that statement. You would be willing to sacrifice the rest for the sake of the one? I would think nerfing her over invalidating all other characters would be a solution, if anything, over the other. You could have one character who needs to be looked at because she had an OP weapon that had to be nerfed, and although it sucks for that ONE character, it will eventually be fixed and re-balanced. OR, in a more absurd option, you could have ONE weapon that reins over them all and all the rest of the character have a high chance of losing against that ONE weapon. Sacrifice the man on the rails or the people on the train? Which one is the rational choice? Both are not great, but at least in the situation of the R&R and Alicia, the "man can be resurrected at a later date."
Now, please respond addressing the 6 points. Try not to avoid one, as it is a sign is a disingenuous argument due to the fact that they are tied together. And if you agree with me, please let MSE know. If you agree and have another solution please share it.
And try and be a good sport.
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I got a #8 argument you can add to your scrubby list, it's called GIT GUD. ;D ;D
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Who wants to only fight NPC's ALL the time anyhow?? Gets so boring after a while. The Antag gives it a nice, albeit challenging breakup to the monotony. He wants more "peaceful" Antags so he doesn't have to ever lose. Lied about the rewards being higher for afk Antaging... Who is that dumb to believe that?? Of course the rewards are higher if you actually try at Antaging! It would make no sense to afk and get better rewards. 1500 is the gold you'll get w/out any weapon bonuses. Your score will always be 0.5 and you gain almost twice the xp for winning as the Antag. Currently to afk Tag I have to sit out 2 matches. Roughly 30-40mins depending on the Raiders. If I just put forth an effort and kill everyone... With Shae mind you... I only need to play one match and get my A affinity. Will you always win? F no!! But you will always get more rewards if you try. Don't listen to this Judas!! He just wants us all to sit down for ice cream and be share bares. As long as he gets the biggest share and no one challenges. This game is too much metal for you. Go play Minecraft or something more your speed. Stop manipulating people! This day and age it's too easy... Kinda like Tagging with the R&R used to be;)
Xoxo
There’s plenty of ppl that want to fight npcs ONLY, me included, if others are interested in pvp that’s fine and they should be free to do their thing but I see no reason why I or anyone not interested, should be wasting their time on the monkey show that is this games pvp/antagonist system.
I disagree with Level9Drow’s constant cries for nerfs (interestingly for all strong characters but Konstantin) but lmfao at those crying git gud… this games pvp is the definition of scrub, if you can’t “git gud” at skill based pvp, then this is the game to be at, go on “skillfully” get that last punch on that raider that got downed by the ai, grapple that raider from behind while he is in cqc with the ai, get that laggy grapple from stealth that was so laggy it didn’t even get the audio to trigger or the audio only started once it had connected, snipe that raider from behind while he’s depositing aleph or busy with some mobs, win that rock/paper/lag cqc, not to mention the complete unbalance in the mmr system, the maps and between the raiders themselves, etc the list could go on… smh git gud and go play a pvp game where you actually have to face your opponent and that at least has some halfway decent netcode…
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I got a #8 argument you can add to your scrubby list, it's called GIT GUD. ;D ;D
I need people like you to come onto these forums and say the things you do. I want the developers and everyone else to see how weak the arguments of the other side is, how toxic the other side is. People like you bring me great pleasure because you make the opponents to what I say look so SO bad. When people look at both sides of the argument they will see what the "care bear" PvEers wrote, pointint out all the reason, their arguments, examples, comparisons, etc... and then when they see the counter argument they will see, "GIT GUD!"
How splendid, please more of this. Tell me more about what we should do. I honestly want you to. Hopefully the devs will see as well.
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ok here's what you have to do. take some lessons about how to be a man and stop bitching about everything you dislike; Seems to me you're spending too much time with your snowflake friends and that's why you think everything will be solved the more you cry about it and lastly but not least G I T G U D.
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ok here's what you have to do. take some lessons about how to be a man and stop bitching about everything you dislike; Seems to me you're spending too much time with your snowflake friends and that's why you think everything will be solved the more you cry about it and lastly but not least G I T G U D.
Perfect, my friend. Thank you. Just what I imagined you would say. Such low hanging fruit.
And there you go folks. There's the "refutation" of all the points I laid out. I think this just about encapsulates the R&R situation quite well. I really don't need to respond to his/her statement, there isn't much to respond to.
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I can't take people who use "GIT GUD" seriously in an argument, they come off as a meme, and i'm sure they hardly take the situation seriously themselves.
Level9Drow does a lot of talking in these threads and quite a lot can come off as or simply is "bitching" but once he takes his rage dump he makes good points for a good, civil, and cohesive ground for debate and I respect his dedication, but most people would write this off as "just a game" and see his passion as childish but that's wrong.
People need to speak up about issues to cause an effect or just get a better understanding of the problems. That's how it was found out that R&R was a bug right? It doesn't effect the world or even your own health but as long as someone approach it as a civilized and as a reasonable human being (realize it is only a game and not "blow up" about it) then I say approach in kind.
Memes and Jokes are fine but have something to back it up with in an actual argument less you come off as an idiot with no actual thought or real opinion. Just a meme.
With that said, Drow isn't "bitching" or being a "care bear". The R&R and is more reasonable now but still worth looking at. I recently got it and you feel practically unstoppable against other players with not just the weapon but the character in general (her flying ability), but I do believe tweaking her will not be an easy task since having really good mobility isn't the only thing a character needs. She needs a good gun.
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fwiw I don't care to "refute" or debate points when there was a dissertation written. Wall of text was tl;dr, I've said my peace and checked out of the thread, bros. Someone responding "git gud" is just trolling, but it seems appropriate when we have a thesis to complain about why everyone who plays this game needs to be weaker to appease a minority.
Been playing Alicia for our crazy mad dash to 100% MMR and lemme tell ya, R&R TICKLES enemies on 71% Destroyer of Worlds. I am only using her for her Sassy card to get from wherever I am on the map, to the refuel point.
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fwiw I don't care to "refute" or debate points when there was a dissertation written. Wall of text was tl;dr, I've said my peace and checked out of the thread, bros. Someone responding "git gud" is just trolling, but it seems appropriate when we have a thesis to complain about why everyone who plays this game needs to be weaker to appease a minority.
Been playing Alicia for our crazy mad dash to 100% MMR and lemme tell ya, R&R TICKLES enemies on 71% Destroyer of Worlds.
I know you checked out so feel free not to respond but you sure people are asking others to be weaker? I haven't actually looked at all of pages (this thread has freaking 9, wow!) but did anyone ask to "weaken" a character. a reduce in say distance don't sound horrible, and I'd consider knowing when to fly when fighting AI would be a strategic thing.
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The argument is that R&R is "too good" and needs a nerf of some kind, be it damage, range, fire rate, whatever. Any negative change would instantly translate to less power at a player's hands.
I already can't kill a rocket soldier with a full mag dump at 71% difficulty, and at 60% a mag dump only does like 1/3rd of a Hades elite's health. Reload speed is already kinda slow with max dynamic, losing fire rate, damage, range, etc. would make it even harder to fight with Alicia at high difficulty. She will just gather dust, like Hans, who is phenomenal at pvp, but terrible at high level pve because he just can't deal the damage.
The longest threads on this forum are all "nerf this" threads. It gets mentally exhausting to argue the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.
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Like it seems ironic that I, a lover of pvp antag mode, am the one who wants a weapon to remain relevant because it's already pretty unremarkable in pve, but the "pve only" players want it to be completely useless because they feel it's "too good" for pvp.
Like how high of a difficulty do you guys play at? :\ Because at 40% sure R&R will steamroll, but 60% it takes many shots to kill just wardogs, 70%+ it's anything but OP-feeling.
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The argument is that R&R is "too good" and needs a nerf of some kind, be it damage, range, fire rate, whatever. Any negative change would instantly translate to less power at a player's hands.
I already can't kill a rocket soldier with a full mag dump at 71% difficulty, and at 60% a mag dump only does like 1/3rd of a Hades elite's health. Reload speed is already kinda slow with max dynamic, losing fire rate, damage, range, etc. would make it even harder to fight with Alicia at high difficulty. She will just gather dust, like Hans, who is phenomenal at pvp, but terrible at high level pve because he just can't deal the damage.
The longest threads on this forum are all "nerf this" threads. It gets mentally exhausting to argue the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.
I understand the fatigue. I usually don't read those/these kind of threads because I don't fully understand or think of a helpful suggestion since they have to do with numbers and scaling. With that said, shouldn't the devs scale weapons around the mmr? At least to a point. I don't know how hard that'll be but food for thought for devs, i guess.
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Like it seems ironic that I, a lover of pvp antag mode, am the one who wants a weapon to remain relevant because it's already pretty unremarkable in pve, but the "pve only" players want it to be completely useless because they feel it's "too good" for pvp.
Like how high of a difficulty do you guys play at? :\ Because at 40% sure R&R will steamroll, but 60% it takes many shots to kill just wardogs, 70%+ it's anything but OP-feeling.
That goes with the pvp vs pve threads since that never really mesh well *cough* destiny *cough*
I usually play around 40-50% because I prefer my hair tearing to be pvp exclusive
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I'm sorry about the dissertation Draco, it was made more for dev eyes to see, my feedback to them. Since they hopefully will be reading both sides of the argument for and against a nerf of the R&R, I have to consider what and how I right it in this context. As far as trolling, I know what he's doing. And also, even though you seem to oppose the idea of a nerf, I wouldn't put you in the same boat is him. It's all part of the presentation, the "theatrics" of the combat we do here. I know I frustrate you, but so far I've learned that you are a reasonable person. I will try and tone down my dramatics when responding to you and be more honest.
As far as the R&R, you're right, Draco, Enemy AI becomes a problem regardless of how the weapon is verses other players. You won't find any protest from me regarding this. This is where we get into the problem of balancing PvP and PvE. And other questions arise, like, should enemy AI be nerfed and re-balanced a different way? But if the enemy AI was never to be nerfed then we would have to think about a way to address the R&R without making it any less potent against AI (assuming you were one who believes it is to powerful against players). I feel nerfing the fall off and keeping everything else, like the range, RoF and spread the same would be the best situation for this. I also wouldn't want the damage to be reduced at all for the first 3rd, or even half, of the length of the range. But where I think it's TOO strong is the damage at the further parts of the range. If we nerf the far ranges of the gun it will be easier for other players to deal with. And if we keep the damage the same in the first 3rd of the the length she could still do the same damage against enemy AI from above, just not from above and a mile away.
I don't think this would be a bad nerf because we keep to the spirit of the characters mechanics. She is a shot gun hero who shoots people from above, she was never meant for long range combat in the first place. Or at least this is what I believe the devs thought of based on her other weapons and special. This would play on her strengths and not change her play style, but alleviate the power it has towards other players, Atnag AND Raiders, and draw it in line with the other characters (Tolchock may still be up in the air as well).
Since it's a team game she would fill her roll against AI still at close range combat death from above against AI just fine. For long range, well we have other characters that specialize in that. She's not supposed to be good at everything. The entire Natives faction has character who can compensate on the team for that, Ginabra and Konstantin are good for filling this position as well. I don't believe there was supposed to be a one man army in PvE.
Let's pretend you also thought it was a bit too powerful in PvP, just for hypothetical inquiry. If you would nerf an aspect of her gun in a better way that would keep viability in PvE but make her risk more in PvP, how would you do it?
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I'm not honestly sure there is a way to reasonably tone the weapon down in a way that makes a measureable effect on pvp and not pve.
Alicia jumps and stays in the air, far higher than anyone else. This means her shotguns require a longer effective range, otherwise the bullets just won't reach the target. Actually, Novera has this exact problem, when you get up in the air it feels like enemies below you at an angle are just too far away to shoot.
The only gun I've agreed needs a nerf, the Tolchok, is due to how roughly it affects a player experience. Playing with it in pve it's not that bad, but not even that good, due to the inability to sustain fire. It's actually kind of annoying sometimes to push elites away from you that you intent to capture, or push an elite with aleph near an ally. Most high level players I know vastly prefer Hornet. But to be a player, being pushed every 0.3 seconds completely dominates you and makes you unable to react or do anything. R&R hurts, Tolchok dominates. Also when compared to every other push gun, it practically invalidates the S.Bogen, Ingrid, etc. because it has such constant and far-reaching pushes.
This is a mechanical problem with having this much pushing power, that causes the pvp balance to be broken while not even really adding much to the pve player's arsenal in a meta that demands you wound elites, not kill them from afar. The R&R, post-nerf, does not carry a mechanical problem that pushes it to this level. The glitch made it really strong, but also scored a lot of accidental kills due to triggering triple damage as you go to wound something. That's gone, so I don't see the weapon as being an issue unless you're unfortunate enough to be in a match where not a single player picked a character/weapon that can handle a jumping Alicia.
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Like it seems ironic that I, a lover of pvp antag mode, am the one who wants a weapon to remain relevant because it's already pretty unremarkable in pve, but the "pve only" players want it to be completely useless because they feel it's "too good" for pvp.
Like how high of a difficulty do you guys play at? :\ Because at 40% sure R&R will steamroll, but 60% it takes many shots to kill just wardogs, 70%+ it's anything but OP-feeling.
I try and keep afloat around 40%. If have to throw as antag to do this otherwise I start creeping up too high. the highest I've been was upper upper 60%, and it was terrifying, at least for me. I don't think, that I know, if I went to 70%, maybe I did once, but blocked the experience out of my memory due to mental trauma.
But yea, I think every gun is weak at those higher MMRs. But I think the problem is the way they raise the AI power at higher MMR %. And if you make weapons good for the sole purpose of higher MMRs you are going to get a very rapid power creep and this will have a catastrophic effect on PvP. The sad thing is that we can't choose our difficulty. Hell, if PvP and difficulty was optional none of this would be an issue. But what you seem to be arguing is that since high MMR is hard you think weapons should not be nerfed, even if they are a problem in PvP. You don't think this is more of an MMR AI power issue rather then a weapon power issue?
I will have to defer to you on Tolchock, I only use it in PvE. And I almost never see Konstantin antags, to be honest, mostly Alicia antags and a sprinkle of others. And even when I do see him with the Tolchock I use Javalin Ginebra a lot, so I never have issues with him. I have yet to find a character that I can handle R&R as easily as I can deal with Tolchock. I just forged Hatchet last nigh, maybe this will work? I dunno.
New question: If they fixed the MMR AI power creep and changed it, say to have the AI just be more numerous as it went higher and be more accurate and fast as opposed to higher health, damage and melee, would you be more comfortable with an R&R re-balancing? I'm just throwing options around at this point and painting different scenarios to give feed back and refresh new ways of thinking about this for devs to read over. I don't have any illusions that we are going to find the "golden answer" in this thread. The more ideas we have and the more perspectives are given by different people it will give the devs a wider scope of the "scenery".
And thanks Draco, for not totally abandoning the thread and playing along giving feedback. You actually have brought up some of the most pertinent points.
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I would like to see the MMR game balance to be re-examined. Because yeah, we can't currently live with both ultimate cosmic powered AI but have guns meant for fluffy bunnies.
Also hate to break it to you, but Hatchet is an awful weapon :(
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I don't mean to change the subject but:
https://twitter.com/mercurysteam/status/1019265597379661824
Is this really happening? OMG this game keeps giving me reasons to love it. Oh R&R you are a thorn in my side but Aneska... well, she's something else.
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I don't mean to change the subject but:
https://twitter.com/mercurysteam/status/1019265597379661824
Is this really happening? OMG this game keeps giving me reasons to love it. Oh R&R you are a thorn in my side but Aneska... well, she's something else.
Sure looks like a hero shot of Aneska! Its what I want the most in this game. Make Aneska a playable raider and I will never complain about anything with this game again! ;D
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I don't mean to change the subject but:
https://twitter.com/mercurysteam/status/1019265597379661824
Is this really happening? OMG this game keeps giving me reasons to love it. Oh R&R you are a thorn in my side but Aneska... well, she's something else.
Gotta catch 'em all!
(https://media.makeameme.org/created/stop-my-penis-ezulzv.jpg)
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Can't believe this is still going... Nothing better to do?? Seriously? I've seen 2, only 2 Alicia Antags since fix. How are you still getting beat by her? Maybe us console players just don't have as many or something. Either way, ya know my 2 cents. Move on. And yaaaayyy for Aneska if that happens. Side note, Space Lords... Dumb name. Less original even than the first. But a rose by any other... Yadda yadda.
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Had another R&R train wreck. I kept suggesting a surrender but the other players decided to take me hostage, again. I did the noble thing and didn't suicide the game out. Take a guess what happened? Just guess how my faith got rewarded. With no possibility of a win, not even remotely.
I will NEVER fall for this again. I've learned my lesson. So, from now on I will no longer allow myself and my time to be taken hostage. I will ask only once to surrender against an R&R. And if they decide to waste my time and patience I will suicide the game out. It's just a COLOSSAL waste of time to even attempt. Give the dick head what he wants quick and get the fuck on to more productive gains ASAP. You can't say I didn't try, and you can't say I didn't give it the benefit of the doubt. Out of my hands, bad balancing and design, sorry. I take no responsibility for this gross error of design.
Good job MSE. Hoping to see this cheap ass gun nerfed soon. I have faith you will make the right choice. I wouldn't want to see your new IP Space Lords ruined because of this oversight. I know nothing will happen now, you guys are an indie studio and work take time. I fully expect to see it, however, August 23rd.
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Lol oh Drow.... You slay me sometimes. I've said it before and I'm guessing you'll make me say it again, you cannot and aren't supposed to win 'em all. Would be pretty boring if we could. Also here's a novel idea, maybe try playing for fun instead of max awards that nerfing everything won't get you anyhow. I don't know who you play all the time as Alicia that kills your game so much but I know it ain't me. I play mostly support no matter who I chose. Get whoever has aleph into a crawl and let me mates sort 'em out from there. When I Tag I almost always sit it out. I just Tag for affinity to upgrade BP's. And I never use Alicia... Thanks to your constant and never ending complaints about her. Just in case I do tag against you one day you won't be able to cry about losing to another Alicia. I've done plenty of damage in the past as Shae and that ain't no easy task by any means. And to those who pick Alicia as a tag, you're not dicks!! Don't worry. Some people just hate to lose. So just keep hitting them as hard as you can and keep you're head on a swivel at all times no matter who you are. Remember also the bottle neck. Funnel folks in like the hot gates... That last goes for everyone always. Xoxo
Ps. Drow, who are you playing as when you lose to Alicia? You're almost making me wanna try and tag with her just to see if it really is that easy to win. Good team work is what gets me through it all... Also the point of the game. No one is more important than the other if every ones doing their jobs right.
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Triggerman, I lose to many other antags, like Rak, Shae, Kuzman and even Alicia wtih Smoking Daisy. And while I don't like PvP, at least I don't feel there was an unfair advantage with these other characters. I also win against them to. But the issue isn't Alicia, it's R&R on a flying character. So don't go thinking this is an Alicia issue, or a general antag issue, although that is another conversation to be had, but unrelated to the R&R.
When you have a high damage yeilding weapon, with a far rang and wide spread on a FLYING character, they have to hit targets below them that only move on a two dimensional axis, so it is impossible to miss with the weapon and, obviously, impossible to avoid. There isn't any way to combat this unless you are in a 4 stack premade with communication and dump your whole party on her. Now we have to ask ourselves why no other antag weapon needs the attention of a navy seals team in order to beat. Tolchock? Easy peasy, Javalin eats them up. But R&R? Well you just spray and pray when you see her.
I've explained this all before. And I really hate to repeat anything Triggerman, because you never replied or countered the arguments I laid out before in this thread. You're just saying, "Git gud, stop being a cry baby." and I'm saying, "How does that refuting my points?"
I respect that you peaceful antag, I always do this, especially when there are low level players in the mix. Everyone plays for their own reasons. I play to make progress. I accept losses in fair situations. But when I detect an unfair situation I will bring it up. And the R&R is currently an unfair situation.
What I ask from you is to go back to the post I made in this thread where I make 7 points, on page 6 of the thread. Read that and tell me what you think. I think it's reasonable and truthful. Try and have an open mind. I'm not trying to beat anyone over the head with these points, I'm trying to make the devs aware of an issue that I see.
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Well to be honest I don't have time to read all your posts. There's soooo many. And my only counter point is from experience. I do not have a problem against R&R, not at all since the fix. I can wax an R&R player with Mikah, Ginebra, Shae, Iune, etc. I'll start streaming again maybe to prove this. I've been playing games everyday since summer of '86 when my dad got the family our first and last NES. I don't know tech specs or jargen. I just know how to strategize my play and adapt to and try to over come obstacles thrown in my path. I'm not saying by any means you can't. And I would never tell someone to "get gud"... Maybe I'd say get good... Lol no I wouldn't do that either. I'm just saying that I like to use this character and why wouldn't I wanna use her most powerful weapon. Makes the wins quicker and speed is a factor. I don't like that you wanna squash her because she can be so effective on a PVE game with the right player. I've said before when I play her and there's an Antag, whoever they may be, I make it my mission to take out the Antag and protect my team as much as I can so they can complete the needed tasks as fast as possible without getting stomped by said Tag. I only have comms when I play with my roommate who sits on the other side of the room. No plans are made with anyone else. I do my job and the rest are freed up to do theirs. If you make her useless with all these complaints that I don't have, then I'm gonna be sad. You don't wanna make me sad do you? I wish they would make a way you don't have to fight a Tag but that would seriously ruin the whole game I feel. Its unique and exciting win or lose. I love it to death and I don't ever want to stop using Alicia... Though I hardly play her any more do to the baby Huarec stop move I learned from you;) I'd rather a lower level take her than Harec any day. So like I said I can only speak from personal XP and in that I cannot agree with you. She's just not that tough to beat now at all. Sorry but that's all I have for a counter argument. Can't you just talk about all the lag issues and getting stuck inside of things and the like? Pretty please... That stuff kills me way more than any Antag. Although I F'n hate Doldren Antags. Bane of my current existence lol. Xoxo
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I was sad that we didn't get to fight to the death last night. It's been so long since we played together, Drow! :( (and I also knew 2 other people in your party)
perhaps a more appropriate nerf would be to the jump itself? Honestly it's just plain hard to HIT Alicia, and she has an easy time hitting you, so it's a losing DPS race. I know it's been suggested multiple times to just add a short cooldown timer to her jump, so she can't spam it. Like 2 seconds would at least give us a little bit of time to fight back once she lands, and would also make the "longer hang time" card more viable vs. the speed cards that currently dominate Alicia's loadouts (my own included).
I used R&R a couple nights ago because I saw raiders using both R&R and Tolchok, and my Tolchok wasn't equipped at the time. It was double agent, and I easily won on part 2 because Tolchok's player disconnected. Rak, Alicia, and Shae were all pretty easy pickings without the TRULY OP weapon there to fuck me up. Their Alicia was better than me since I never ever play her, but our MMR was exactly the same so I actually had some AI help, and prevailed.
Anyways, R&R antags don't really bother me, but as an antagonist, Raiders using R&R are awful to fight against. Any weapon that is considered "OP" for XYZ reasons is definitely multiplied when raiders use it, because AI is less reliable to help you, than human teammates. Tolchok and R&R just have to bum-rush antags and it's hard to counter them when you're basically alone.
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Well Triggerman, it's hard to criticize what you didn't read. And if we're invoking anecdotal evidence then we're equal on that front. And so they would cancel each other out. I don;t think you should read ALL the posts, just the one. That's where I really tried to lay the points out fairly.
LordDraco, me and Nana were pretty stoked to see you. I wanted to see what I could do after watching your videos. But the other player picked my main Ginebra, so I had to go with my Alicia who I just recently forged Smoking Daisy with, I won't touch R&R. I didn't do so great and was rusty with my CQC shell drop mechanics. We didn't stand a chance, but not because Hive is OP, so don't worry, no foul called here. We just realized were weren't gonna get anywhere with you, lol, so we surrendered before it dragged on for too long. We didn't want to waste too much time and it was funny because it was a unanimous dicision, even from the other two who were randoms. You seem to have a reputation that evokes fear from those who see your name, because that was the first time I had ever gotten an instant agreement for surrender on the first request from randoms. That made me laugh.
As far as nefing her jump. Well if we do this it will make her other guns even weakeer. I'm not saying this is not the solution, but I get what you're saying with the advantage she has, she's basically flying 90% of the time. This may be the reason why they made her guns initially not as dangerous? Because of the huge advantage? But if they do nerf the jump it should be a small cool down, like 2 seconds, just enough to allow some counterplay from her opponents. Then maybe the R&R won't be as much of an issue? But shooting while flying where you can't be CQCed and with that weapon is overpowering for whomever is at the other end, antag or raider. I think a really sick Harec could beat her, I saw Brents Harec and my jaw dropped, no one can ever say Herec sucks after watching his videos, and an Alicia with R&R could do very little against that. Maybe a Ginebra with Javalin? But the reach of R&R is so damn good that if she's far enough away not to hit you with it it's far enough away that it is REALLY hard to land a hit with Javalin. Most my experience with Gin verse R&R is just watching your friends die while you run away. Sure she can't kill me, but she doesn't have to in order to win.
I think her other guns should be buffed a bit, your CD on jump is a good idea, but her other guns are still weak. Maybe both the gun buff and jump nerf would be good? I don't know. I'm just not going to bother with R&R antags anymore until then though. Not Alicia antags, let's be clear, but R&R antags.
EDIT: Oh you did say 2 seconds on cool down. Then yea, as you can see I agreed.
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I was sad that we didn't get to fight to the death last night. It's been so long since we played together, Drow! :( (and I also knew 2 other people in your party)
perhaps a more appropriate nerf would be to the jump itself? Honestly it's just plain hard to HIT Alicia, and she has an easy time hitting you, so it's a losing DPS race. I know it's been suggested multiple times to just add a short cooldown timer to her jump, so she can't spam it. Like 2 seconds would at least give us a little bit of time to fight back once she lands, and would also make the "longer hang time" card more viable vs. the speed cards that currently dominate Alicia's loadouts (my own included).
I used R&R a couple nights ago because I saw raiders using both R&R and Tolchok, and my Tolchok wasn't equipped at the time. It was double agent, and I easily won on part 2 because Tolchok's player disconnected. Rak, Alicia, and Shae were all pretty easy pickings without the TRULY OP weapon there to fuck me up. Their Alicia was better than me since I never ever play her, but our MMR was exactly the same so I actually had some AI help, and prevailed.
Anyways, R&R antags don't really bother me, but as an antagonist, Raiders using R&R are awful to fight against. Any weapon that is considered "OP" for XYZ reasons is definitely multiplied when raiders use it, because AI is less reliable to help you, than human teammates. Tolchok and R&R just have to bum-rush antags and it's hard to counter them when you're basically alone.
Something about your memory of this Double Agent match coincides with my memory of the SAME Double Agent match. With the disconnecting Kon, the better Alicia and the Rak, that I unfortunately was playing lol. You are correct sir, once we were in the open and the Kon disconnected it was pretty much a losing battle for us, especially since I brought the Shepard and not the DPY. I feel we had it pretty much in the bag up until that point though. That one stung a bit lol.
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I was sad that we didn't get to fight to the death last night. It's been so long since we played together, Drow! :( (and I also knew 2 other people in your party)
perhaps a more appropriate nerf would be to the jump itself? Honestly it's just plain hard to HIT Alicia, and she has an easy time hitting you, so it's a losing DPS race. I know it's been suggested multiple times to just add a short cooldown timer to her jump, so she can't spam it. Like 2 seconds would at least give us a little bit of time to fight back once she lands, and would also make the "longer hang time" card more viable vs. the speed cards that currently dominate Alicia's loadouts (my own included).
I used R&R a couple nights ago because I saw raiders using both R&R and Tolchok, and my Tolchok wasn't equipped at the time. It was double agent, and I easily won on part 2 because Tolchok's player disconnected. Rak, Alicia, and Shae were all pretty easy pickings without the TRULY OP weapon there to fuck me up. Their Alicia was better than me since I never ever play her, but our MMR was exactly the same so I actually had some AI help, and prevailed.
Anyways, R&R antags don't really bother me, but as an antagonist, Raiders using R&R are awful to fight against. Any weapon that is considered "OP" for XYZ reasons is definitely multiplied when raiders use it, because AI is less reliable to help you, than human teammates. Tolchok and R&R just have to bum-rush antags and it's hard to counter them when you're basically alone.
Something about your memory of this Double Agent match coincides with my memory of the SAME Double Agent match. With the disconnecting Kon, the better Alicia and the Rak, that I unfortunately was playing lol. You are correct sir, once we were in the open and the Kon disconnected it was pretty much a losing battle for us, especially since I brought the Shepard and not the DPY. I feel we had it pretty much in the bag up until that point though. That one stung a bit lol.
Oof yeah, I've been in your shoes with Sheppard Rak vs. R&R, it SUCKS that you become a sitting duck against an overpowering airborne opponent. Which I hate, because Sheppard is an extremely FUN gun to use, but R&R is virtually impossible to fight with it ;_; the only luck I had was on Breath of Hope, baiting Alicia into the tunnels. DPY is almost a must these days since it can down Alicia mid-jump with 2 shots, or 1 crit
Anyways yeah, I think a small cooldown that will allow opponents to engage CQC after a walljump (including loadouts that can't fight against the air, like Sheppard Rak), and a buff to her other weapons, would be nice. It's cringey to see Novera's single-digit damage numbers, and in the same match see it crit for 100's like that's not a reliable gun at all.
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Completely agree with the wall jump cooldown and a buff to her other guns to make them more viable.
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As much as I hate to touch Alicia in a negative way... (side note: I was in love with Australia as a child. MadMax blew my tiny mind. Crocodile Dundee, I saw in the theatre. One of my favorite bands is 12 Foot Ninja((look em up!)), Kylie Minogue was in Bio-Dome) :o but I will agree with the jump being better to mess with than the weapon. Maybe make the trails less visible, sound less repetitive, slightly tighter spread possibly... Ooh I feel dirty... If they really feel like it... Mess with the jump. Leave the rest. Well maybe a new even hotter costume... But yeah. The jump is what gets people. She IS an unfair advantage to Antags. I know for a fact, that is the very reason I still use her. Haven't been around that long I know. But I really wanna be here to stay. And for everyone to be good damn people. So rare these days. Is there a section for jokes and anecdotes here some where??
Think about this in your head... Jeff Goldblum saying...
"Ahh, yes, yes. There is no 'I'- in team, yes, of course! But!.. There is after all indeed an 'I' in... Antagonist!"-NOT a real quote from Mr. Goldblum. Thank you and goodnight ladies and germs!
Funnsies! Xoxo
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LOL today I watched R&R reach Schneider when he was cutting down the beam, she didn't even need to jump. MASSIVE damage as well, HUGE spread, at the end of the range especially. BAM BAM BAM BAM RAPID successions, fantastic RoF.
Was in a party with other people well over level 60 few hundreds, and a level 30 R&R wasted us, LOLOL. OMG MSE what the hell are you thinking? Get a grip with your balancing an neuter this bitch quick.
I was using my Javalin today and was trying to kill multiple adds charging me, I couldn't get them down in time, too many, I was killed by a Hades Fatty, he lunges 100 feet as I transformed and grabbed me, 40% speed card wasn't fast enough? I was thinking how much Javelin sucks, but you know what would have done the job and cleared out all of them? R&R, I've seen it. I thought, "I wish Ginebra had the R&R" Then it made me realize how much Javelin really sucks. If R&R can do high damage at far and close range and shoots multiple bullets in a wide spread why the FUCK does javelin not do damage close up with ONE goddamn arrow? And I have ti actually aim and move slowly, I'm not flying in the air.
I was using Cookie in close range and lamenting how I could block an area from adds coming in but couldn't get around my own explosions because I would hurt myself. But you know what would have provided area denial and then allowed passage? R&R
Struggling with a mob on Weapon from the Past with Hive? You may have extra health but the 3 mooks stun lock you so the fatty can grab you. Wish you had a weapon that did MORE damage than the Wasp and provided mass amounts of damage to a wide area while in the safety from CQC, oh yea! R&R would do that.
Snipers getting you down? Need to take them out fast at a distance without needing accuracy? R&R, you can follow her while she tries to escape by flying over the enemies she called to protect her. Don't even have to aim, down her in 2 shots.
Need to kill a boss at a safe distance but don't have good accuracy? But want to also do massive damage at a rapid rat of fire? R&R, you don't even have to worry about the enemies around you. YOU CAN FLY!!! LOL
Need to kill Raiders who can only move on a two dimensional plane while you fly over them? You don't even need to aim, hell you can hit 2 or 3 of them and down them in 2 or 3 shots. Then the mooks finish the job or you could come down from the sky back into the dander of CQC and finish all of them and collect their Aleph.
See some level 150s to 200s and you are only level 40? How will you kill those guys? OH, I got it! R&R, don't even have to get near them, you can hit them from a quarter of the map away and at that distance it's even EASIER to hit them because of the spread. Look at them trying to shoot you, LOL. Don't they know you can just land and regenerate? Look at them trying beat your DPS you while 50% of their shots miss you because you're FLYING and ALL, fucking ALL, of your shots are hitting them AND for WAAAYYYYYYYYY more damage then they are hitting you with. No contest.
Look at stupid Harec, LOL. He has to try and aim at you while moving slow. All you have to do is fly and shoot one shot and hit the 20 feet area around him with R&R. OH he's on the wall now? You can still reach him, LOL. AND do massive damage, unlike Konstantins who has to clip him for 20% of hist bullets at that range, WHILE moving slow, giving Harec just enough time to head shot him. Can't head shot the flying blue haired super girl. (Brent could, but he's the exception, not the rule)
This game is so easy. Raiders must all suck, why do they all suck? They need to learn to aim better, because you sure in the hell don't need to. They need to get better weapons, LOL wait...none of them are better than R&R, you forgot that didn't you. They should fly like you, wait...THEY CAN'T!!!! LOLOL You are in 3 dimensional space while they are the 2D shooting gallery below.
Look at Lycus, he thinks his shield can protect him, and you're too high to take damage from his short range weapon. You'll just fly and shoot through his shield, what a dummy.
Wait WHAT? A Raider actually wounded you? O_O (*checks if pigs are flying or is Ragnarok is at hand...nope) What will you do now?!?! Oh, you'll just fire your multi beam superman eye lasers at them and out DPS them. Look, they died and you are fine now and healing like Wolverine and already flying away looking for your next easy target, can't out DPS your R&R, they must suck. They really need to learn to "GIT GUD" like you are.
/S
Think for a moment if you gave the R&R to Ginebra or Hans or Rak. Think if EVERY character was able to get the R&R, actually. Why use anything else? Rang, Damage, RoF, Spread AND it cleaves through multiple targets AND goes through shields and barriers... you don't even have to try with this weapon. Add the ability to fly and regenerate on top of that.
Goddamn what an egregious error MSE, what were you guys thinking. MORE internal testing please, this was such a horrible mistake. You have one gun that can do EVERYTHING except hit a fly across the map able to be used by a character that can fly. *sarcastic applaud* Awesome job!
It is so hard keeping a positive attitude moving forward. I'm trying, I even did the foolish thing again and attempted to fight her. AGAIN. Level 30 i think she was. I thought that would make a difference. And it didn't. I was Loaht with Cookie, There was a Kuzman with Lichbogen, a Hive and some other poor fucker who though being level 100+ mattered against an R&R at level 30ish. We couldn't touch her half the time. She could hit us all the time. We were on No Reservations. I can't keep doing this. I need to start listening to my intuition when I see an R&R and suicide and save myself 30 fucking minutes of forgone conclusions of shit rewards for trying. I tried. Can't say I didn't try.
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Can anyone even take this seriously anymore? 5000 word essays of trash talk over here(that I refuse to read all of. Just ridiculous). I don't like to say this but if you hate it so much quit. I doubt MSE will miss one player. Especially with all the new future players about to come in. It is hard to believe you don't just have a vendetta against Alicia. She's golden. Once I hit max forge I'll level up the rest of her BP's and try them out but I get the feeling she'll still own regardless. And why the heck would you use cookie against her? Lol that sounds like failure for sure. Gotta keep her at a distance. Attack her while she's attacking. Hide behind whatever when needed. (I doubt I need to tell you that but I just did) I'm not saying it's easy but what Antag match is? I'll keep saying what I tell my buddy all the time... If you play this game for fun and the love of it, it is so much better and you won't get so butt hurt over a loss or 2.
I'm gonna go see if I can't win or lose a couple right now.
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Loaht is hard countered by Alicia in general, just like Sheppard Rak. This is why my issue is more with her constantly being airborne, rather than the gun itself. I'm getting sick of it too, but I could deal with the weapon if I could just close in on her when she came down. But they always float near cover or a wall and up they go again for another round of shooting
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Once I hit max forge I'll level up the rest of her BP's and try them out but I get the feeling she'll still own regardless.
U might be surprised just how much weaker the rest of her guns are overall. Its why everyone chooses R&R, but hey, I'm not about to tell someone how to spend their gold. Just dont expect the same results anybody can get from spamming the R&R, her other guns just don't cut it.
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Triggerman, you can't SEE who the antag is before you pick, dummy. They can see what YOU pick only. What do you mean "why did I use Coockie"? I dunno, because I figured it should be ok to play a character and gun you enjoy? And Every team shouldn't be comprised of characters specifically to counter ONE GUN in the game? Fuck me right? "Why did I choose Cookie against her" Get out of here with that. You should know better that to ask a question like that, you aren't a spring chicken to the game.
"Can anyone even take this seriously anymore?" What are we in a court room? Are like a lawyer talking to a jury? Really? Everyone else seems to have some good feedback on the issue of Alicia and R&R, many still feel it's overpowered some have other ways of fixing the issue. You're on an island by yourself man, no jury there with you.
"I won't read a his post and claim it's an essay, but I'll sure open my mouth and bellow out drivel." If you can't read it you don't have any legitimacy to your response, because you AREN'T responding, you didn't read it, you don't know what to respond to. You're just attacking, not offering any insight, new ideas or countering. Stop being lazy go read the 7 points of page 6. I'm not tooeasy, I have some semblance of writing etiquette, it isn't a Borg ship made of words.
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and challenge you to do something. Go antag with Alicia and use R&R, max that shit out at forge level 25. Do that and tell me your experience. Don't come back and be a contrarian and lie just to win a point. Tell me how many games you win and lose and how easy it was compared to other characters and weapons. Card her with flotation speed or duration with one of the epimorphosis like most people do and see how it goes.
Draco, if they nerf her jump the have to buff her other three guns, they need it badly. Constantly jumping with her feels good gameplay-wise, so while I'm not disagreeing with you, I feel kind of sad if there is a nerf to floatation. But right now she pretty much is the only flying character in the game with no cool down. I think it's messed up one weapon would mean her special nerfed. But I'll take ANYTHING at this point, to be honest.
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So, really they just need to make the gun shoot bullets and not damage through cover. Let the barrier guns protect against it, and it should be fine.
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So, really they just need to make the gun shoot bullets and not damage through cover. Let the barrier guns protect against it, and it should be fine.
Yes, that's a problem, but the other is it's a gun that is TOO easy to aim and hit with good damage able to be fired from the safety of flying. Even if they did what you suggest, there's only Lycus who can counter her, and a gun for Hive and Mikah. That still leaves no counter play from any other character outside of a Tolchock.
The more I think about her flying the more I realize why in their original iteration of weapons they wanted to make her damage oputput less than other characters to balance the fact that she's untouchable. It sucks to do low damage, so they gave her a powerful weapon. Which in theory is a good idea, but they forgot about the fact that she can fly.
I wouldn't have any complaint of the gun if it was a beam. This would, like other heroes, mean she would have to be more skilled as she jumped and shot at you. The hit rate would be a lot less and this would allow a back and forth between the Alicia and her opponent to occur. As in, an actual fight or competition, as in an actual game between two opponents. Right now it's not a back and forth, it's just, Alicia jumps in the sky and makes it rain undogeable laser beams, you just have to eat it. Unless you are Gin and can run for your life, you have to accept you are going to get hit and, in most cases, lose the dps race with her.
I think the barrier solution you bring is deffinitely a good one, but I don't believe it solves the problem for other characters. You godda remember, this isn'tOverwatch, I can't go back and switch my "hero" to another in light of my opponents choice in mid battle. I am stuck with what I choose, and so there should be SOME counter play with at least half the roster against her. Currently we are reduced to unique small hand picked situations in where she can be countered.
I dunno, they are probably going to do something about this anyways. I have a good feeling they will in August. I need to be patient, it just sucks for now when I get an R&R antag. I choose to ignore the issue and just accept and trust the developers, but then these situations re-open the "wound" all over again. I'm just sick of that gun. I get killed by other antags all the time and it sucks, but I feel like I could have dome something about it, or that it's ME that sucked and made a mistake in that instance. But with R&R, I just shake my head and roll my eyes.
Thanks for dropping some feedback Brent, sick Harec, by the way. I love your vids on twitch.
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My frame of reference and argument for nerfing her jump: a 2 second cooldown is not long, it would not be a hard nerf to the character in most situations. We already have an ability with a 2 second cooldown-- Ayana's hook-- and we all know it can pretty much be spammed and many people wanted it to have more of a cooldown back when she was first added (but they nerfed the range instead).
2 seconds in pvp though is enough to engage in CQC or have a chance to shoot her on the ground, so you don't have to compensate for all XYZ axis to land a shot on her. Also look at Hans, who has a delay on starting up his jetpack. He has a freakin' JETPACK and he can't use it to escape CQC, but Alicia can literally just jump away from all of her pvp CQC worries? AI still seems to grab her from the air anyways due to some weird collision detection, but that's neigh impossible to do as a player who is so much squishier and less in numbers than the AI.
I'm sick of fighting the weapon, but I am more sick of fighting someone who's constantly airborne more than anything. She's just so damn hard to hit when they constantly spin around like a tornado while slowly falling, then when they land up they go again. Hard push guns like Tolchok at the only reliable counter, due to knocking her out of the air, and every other push gun is projectile, tolchok being the only hitscan. Ingrid doesn't really count due to how ineffective it is as a push utility gun.
If it shot a slug instead of buckshot I do agree it would lower the hit rate and thus be easier to fight against.
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So here's now what I think... Alicia is THE character that gets the new players on board. She is tough right off the bat. It is crazy that if you try for R&R it never shows but if you're low level, BOOM! There it is. And then you don't need another BP for her for a long time. No one likes to be past a lvl anything and lose to her. But without her there would be no new players who stick around. By the time someone hits lvl 50 they should know most maps. The longer you play the less likely you are to use Alicia... Doesn't change the fact that low levels can eat you alive. So I really think the "MMR" is to blame. Why ever would a player over lvl 100 play with a lvl 1 no matter what?? That is where everyone seems to get pissed. They think there's no way this 35 could beat my 150, but then they do and disillusionment sets in. Why am I playing this?? Um, cause it's fun as hell and all lvl's have a chance if they want... I don't Antag with her as I've stated numerous times but I also don't lose to her as much as I read about on here. I know she can be beat and ya don't even have to fight fire with fire. I wish this would end. I got into a 2 shot crawl from Lycos and the Pepper Pot and various other weapons in the past. Schlueder comes to mind... I Use that a lot from downtown and put Antags in a crawl so my team can take care of the rest. If you're not hot doggin and play as a team, no Antag can stop you. Member... No "I" in team, only "AntagonIst" ;) xoxo
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I fight against a 1-shot Lycus using Hive WAY easier than I can deal with an R&R Alicia. Again, it's her mobility that makes pvp hard to deal with. But high MMR AI will track her making it almost pointless for pve anyways, it's just a player annoyance, much like Doldren't teleport since AI knows exactly when he moves but players don't have that luxury.
As videogamedunkey wisely said: "In video games, movement is power"
This is why I could give less of a shit what guns 1-shot me, if I still have a chance to fight back. Lycus, Schleuder, snipers, doldren, etc. can all 1-shot but can still be fought against. Ginebra is the hardest of these to kill of course due to her armor and cat, one of the ultimate movement abilities in the game with hardly any limits on it, not because of her weapons. Rak is only good because of his speed buff. Alicia's guns are trash but she can bamboozle human reflexes very easily. R&R is not trash though, so mixed with one of the hardest characters to hit, and that's why she's so hard to counter.
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If they'd make Barrier work against RnR there would be a counter play, and this would be fine.
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i use mainly schneider and, until now, i never had particular issues vs rock'n'roll (with rain of fire). isn't tolchok also good to counter rock'n'roll?
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Tolchock is good against Rock and Roll on open maps. But heavy isle maps like A Breath of Hope it's not good, because Alicia can shoot far while flying near walls and will be knocked down but behind the safety of the many walls that exist there and just regenerate before slow mo Konstantin can make it to her. But maps like Short Fused and the second phase of Double Agent is open enough that she can't hide from Tolchock. I destroyed her on this map. But do I have to only play Konstantin always?
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Well it's august now so I dougt they are fixing anything, most likely too busy working on monitizing everything in the game for when they go even more free to play as spacelords.
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Dude, chill. They don't have loot boxes and everything you would spend money on is cosmetic or just gives XP bonus, which doesn't mean anything in terms of power after level 150. Everything else you can earn in the game, and it's not THAT grindy.