Mercurysteam's Hangout
BARRACKS => Gameplay Feedback => Topic started by: LordDraco3 on October 01, 2018, 08:39:53 PM
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So a month after it was adjusted, I fought my first Tolchok again. As a reminder, these are the patch notes:
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/315765053364109312/481487622372589568/Capture4.PNG?width=887&height=252)
And I find them completely inadequate.
After finally getting to fight it again, it's still just as obnoxious as ever, it actually feels untouched when you're on the receiving end of it. You can still get stunlocked to death, and it will push constantly from an infinite range. The notes sounded like it wouldn't push beyond 20 meters, but that's not the case at all.
Anyways here was me getting 10 kills in a row before Tolchok killed me. I lost this match. They also had 12% less MMR than I did.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVObod3h1Bw
Tolchok killed me a LOT but I still got like 40 kills, despite the MMR difference.
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Out of all the broken weapons in this game you want to start with that one lol. Valeria's little girl is a much bigger threat imo with instant down and pushback with ridiculous aoe range.
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Out of all the broken weapons in this game you want to start with that one lol. Valeria's little girl is a much bigger threat imo with instant down and pushback with ridiculous aoe range.
Can't be used while wounded
Requires timing on the ability and the gun shot
Once gate is placed, Valeria can be flanked because of cooldown on repositioning her ability.
I know you're just being condescending because I posted an antag video and got wrecked by an OP weapon. If I show you a video of me using it AS an antag and decimating a team, would that help change your mind?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv8HQqIjHcI
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Out of all the broken weapons in this game you want to start with that one lol. Valeria's little girl is a much bigger threat imo with instant down and pushback with ridiculous aoe range.
Can't be used while wounded
Requires timing on the ability and the gun shot
Once gate is placed, Valeria can be flanked because of cooldown on repositioning her ability.
I know you're just being condescending because I posted an antag video and got wrecked by an OP weapon. If I show you a video of me using it AS an antag and decimating a team, would that help change your mind?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv8HQqIjHcI
It's not that hard to get the timing right on little girl or just use the whip. In that mission where you rekt that team the whip/little girl would have just completely stomped them aswell by blocking the bridge path and locking them down with no where to go. Im not saying that weapon isn't op but that there are much more broken things like loath's cookie as well.
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On the videos, you were 133 as Konstantin, 254 as Hans. Was Konstantin's really after the nerf? Can you capture another video from a recent invasion?
I do not say Tolchok is not broken now, but your examples are not convincing.
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On the videos, you were 133 as Konstantin, 254 as Hans. Was Konstantin's really after the nerf? Can you capture another video from a recent invasion?
I do not say Tolchok is not broken now, but your examples are not convincing.
I'm a little confused as to what is being asked? My video when I play Kon was from as soon as I got my hands on the gun once it came out, that was the first game I played using it. It had already received a small damage reduction by the time I got one. I literally killed 3 raiders, while I was wounded, within the first 30 seconds of that match, if you didn't notice. I also stunlocked Harec and Lycus from a totally different platform later on. Close range, long range, it will dominate anything it sets its sights on.
The video with Hans was just this weekend. The only changes to the gun between these videos were outlined in the patch notes posted above. My point is that it is still incredibly overpowered because the push itself has not been fixed. The patch notes basically played around with some numbers but it still pushes constantly at infinite range. You can be right in someone's face going for a finishing blow and it will push you away and kill you.
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Moral of the story, nobody likes getting pushed?
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It's literally the push that's the problem. But they..... made it push.... farther????????
Also just had this match vs. Tolchok on No Res. Was about to win it too except at the VERY LAST SECOND the game wasn't letting me jump up to the ledge?? I hope MSE reviews this specific video...
I don't mind losing if someone is just better, but Tolchok is universally hated by the community last I checked. People just stopped talking about it because there's nothing to argue... we all know it's broken. But the most recent patch did nothing to address the reason *why* everyone hates it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnGqg3hlF_I
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Push not kill. Tolchok dmg is suck, overheat op,rotation speed average.
If u lose vs tolchok dat is mainly your problem and your disposition and skill issue.
1 vs 1 in open field -agree ,-very hard to deal with. But ALL OTHER SITUTAION,-pls be smarter player :D
ADD:I very much would like that all antagonists there were Konstantines with Tolchok's instead No balls Harek-retards,Rak's or Alicia'ss :)
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I'm a little confused as to what is being asked? My video when I play Kon was from as soon as I got my hands on the gun once it came out, that was the first game I played using it.
The video with Hans was just this weekend. The only changes to the gun between these videos were outlined in the patch notes posted above. My point is that it is still incredibly overpowered because the push itself has not been fixed.
Simple.
Can you upload a recent video using Kons as an Antag by you?
Rather you whine for a lost game because the Raiders managed to win even if your Hans OP them.
The Kons video of you antagging does not prove your point because the video was taken before the patch in the late August.
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I have to agree. A Tolchok is extremely frustrating to deal with. I don't even feel the damage or the push is the problem. It's supposed to do that. But the stunning lock is just too much. There's just nothing you can do the second it gets a shot on you. It can't be countered.
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I have to agree. A Tolchok is extremely frustrating to deal with. I don't even feel the damage or the push is the problem. It's supposed to do that. But the stunning lock is just too much. There's just nothing you can do the second it gets a shot on you. It can't be countered.
Yeah, it needs a cooldown so that after it procs against a specific enemy it will not proc again for ~8s. That leaves the Konstantine with the choice of either switching to a new target to cause the knockback effect or continuing to damage the current one (w/o being able to cause a knockback).
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I'm a little confused as to what is being asked? My video when I play Kon was from as soon as I got my hands on the gun once it came out, that was the first game I played using it.
The video with Hans was just this weekend. The only changes to the gun between these videos were outlined in the patch notes posted above. My point is that it is still incredibly overpowered because the push itself has not been fixed.
Simple.
Can you upload a recent video using Kons as an Antag by you?
Rather you whine for a lost game because the Raiders managed to win even if your Hans OP them.
The Kons video of you antagging does not prove your point because the video was taken before the patch in the late August.
I already gave 3 different videos involving Tolchok, not gonna antag with it just to say "look I can still win with it"
If u lose vs tolchok dat is mainly your problem and your disposition and skill issue.
1 vs 1 in open field -agree ,-very hard to deal with. But ALL OTHER SITUTAION,-pls be smarter player
Normally I just ignore your posts but this time
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/0d04a0ea2aaedbd2b19e8c2ded0be235/tenor.gif?itemid=5364271)
I posted a video of trying to fight it on No Res, possibly the smallest map in the game. Open maps are actually Tolchok's weakness as it can be flanked from the sides/behind. But when tolchok's victims can only come 1 or 2 directions, it's impossible to advance on Konstantin. Both the video of me using it on Beast Lair proves that, as well as No Res.
It's not that it can't be beaten, but it's unnecessarily powerful in the stunlock department. I don't care if they keep lowering the damage to the single-digits if it's going to stunlock me the moment a bullet touches me. Stunlock isn't fun in any game, it just robs the player of agency and ability to escape or fight back. It's not like I can press a button and get a C-C-C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER to escape this gun's stunlock. No other push gun in the game is given this much leniency.
I posted about it being OP when I was using and winning with it, and I'm saying it's still just as powerful, it has not been toned down. If you're taking this as a post because I just lost against it, you're probably new and should check my past topics and videos first. It's pretty rare that I have ever asked for nerfs, and I always do it by first showing myself using said broken weapon. I could just as easily equip it myself and just keep wrecking teams, which others have done and posted multiple videos about, but that'd be shitty to keep using a gun that I myself consider unbalanced.
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Out of all the broken weapons in this game you want to start with that one lol. Valeria's little girl is a much bigger threat imo with instant down and pushback with ridiculous aoe range.
What?! ppl complaining about little girl… is this serious, both that and earthling are weapons easily countered (flanked) in a pvp situation by most raiders, I expected to hear complaints about whip (although that weapon has a pretty huge cooldown, regular weapon fire is trash and leaves Valeria vulnerable for quite a while).
The hallways or narrow paths that could be an issue if an antag is using whip would also be an issue with many other weapons, or even just abilities, I mean Konstantin as an antag in No Reservations is pretty much broken… just because of his bubble alone, not to mention tolchok. So any issues a weapon like whip can have are more the fault of the stage/enviroment itself imo, while the issues that tolchok has are much more severe and occur with or without the help of the environment.
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Stop this planet, we have arrived... to mention Little Girl in subjects about "the broken weapon"...
(https://i.yapx.ru/CXdqX.gif)
It in general as it can come to mind ? O_O
That is during firefight the person in a face against Valeria with the established portal, the player has lost melted by projectile in da face...and come to here and write : "Little Girl Op pls help"...ok...this is 2018... everythink is possible .Now i sure.
Considering similar maybe really the author is rights and Tolchok really broken weapon.
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Hi guys,
Since this is a recurrent issue, I'm letting the design team know so they can evaluate the options regarding the Tolchok.
Thank you very much for your feedback!
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Hi guys,
Since this is a recurrent issue, I'm letting the design team know so they can evaluate the options regarding the Tolchok.
Thank you very much for your feedback!
Oh no not another nerf if they keep this up it will be completely useless in pve. It already over heats so quickly and the damage to ads isn't that great.
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I play with the Tolchok pretty regularly and I've gotta say that it has its weaknesses. The slow spinup, quick overheat, and garbage at long range means that it's not impossible to fight. It's just like any other character, if you choose the right antagonist, Kons is boned.
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I know it has always heated up quick, spun slow, and had dubious accuracy. None of that is what makes it awful though, nor is it the damage. It's always been the push. The constant, endless, impossible to escape push.
On my No Res video you can see our Shae get pushed off the bridge at one point despite trying to duck behind cover, being shot from a considerable distance. This weapon made a lot of people aware that Lycus' shield doesn't block push effects, he can be completely stunlocked through his shield by this gun, until he's either in a corner or off a ledge, despite taking 0 damage.
The nerfs need to target the problem area, and damage and heat were never the main problem. The video where I antagged with it above shows how dominating it is to anyone on the receiving end, when I killed 3 Raiders within 10 meters of me ALL while I was wounded. They all charged me to land a finisher and I just pushed them away until they died, including a shielded Lycus. The push is so fast and consistent that you can't even raise your gun to shoot back. It pushes anyone in any maneuver, be it jump, roll, whatever. I have wounded Kons as Alicia before and jumped literally in his face to finish him, and I always get pushed away to death because the first bullet pushes and I get re-pushed every half a second.
I've been on both sides of the gun enough to know that the push is ridiculous. I think the damage has dropped too much and is affecting pve, but push has only been strengthened with the last patch, pushing 7 meters instead of 5.
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I know it has always heated up quick, spun slow, and had dubious accuracy. None of that is what makes it awful though, nor is it the damage. It's always been the push. The constant, endless, impossible to escape push.
On my No Res video you can see our Shae get pushed off the bridge at one point despite trying to duck behind cover, being shot from a considerable distance. This weapon made a lot of people aware that Lycus' shield doesn't block push effects, he can be completely stunlocked through his shield by this gun, until he's either in a corner or off a ledge, despite taking 0 damage.
The nerfs need to target the problem area, and damage and heat were never the main problem. The video where I antagged with it above shows how dominating it is to anyone on the receiving end, when I killed 3 Raiders within 10 meters of me ALL while I was wounded. They all charged me to land a finisher and I just pushed them away until they died, including a shielded Lycus. The push is so fast and consistent that you can't even raise your gun to shoot back. It pushes anyone in any maneuver, be it jump, roll, whatever. I have wounded Kons as Alicia before and jumped literally in his face to finish him, and I always get pushed away to death because the first bullet pushes and I get re-pushed every half a second.
I've been on both sides of the gun enough to know that the push is ridiculous. I think the damage has dropped too much and is affecting pve, but push has only been strengthened with the last patch, pushing 7 meters instead of 5.
I feel like this isn't only an issue with just this gun. There are some shotgun ads that can stunlock aswell and a few other guns. So i think what they should do is give players some kind of resistance to push/stagger in general, like after a push you can't be pushed again for another 3 seconds. This should fix any stunlock issues currently in the game.
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I have never been stunlocked by 5th counsel minions unless I was surrounded by 3 or more.
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I have never been stunlocked by 5th counsel minions unless I was surrounded by 3 or more.
You probably haven't been in a mission with high enough mmr yet. The ads get pretty insane, to the point where you can't even grab aleph from a downed elite fifth council brute without getting pushed back to oblivion.
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how about this, the weapon wont push you when you are rolling/dodging, that way you can jump into cover if you are close to it and you have a mean to avoid being stunlock, what you guys think?
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how about this, the weapon wont push you when you are rolling/dodging, that way you can jump into cover if you are close to it and you have a mean to avoid being stunlock, what you guys think?
It's better to add temporary kockback immunity after it procs on a player. That way it solves the problem for every weapon simultaneously. It would also prevent multiple knockback effect procing on the same player in succession.
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how about this, the weapon wont push you when you are rolling/dodging, that way you can jump into cover if you are close to it and you have a mean to avoid being stunlock, what you guys think?
It's better to add temporary kockback immunity after it procs on a player. That way it solves the problem for every weapon simultaneously. It would also prevent multiple knockback effect procing on the same player in succession.
Yup that's pretty much what i suggested, it shouldn't be too difficult to implement.
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Lycus's shield considering it's the only shield built into a character should block all projectiles and also the push mechanic . I'm surprised MS didn't think to buff his shield to counter that gun.
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Hi again guys!
Just letting you know you'll see some changes for the O. Tolchok (we are evaluating how to make the experience less frustrating) in the next patch. We'll let you know when this update is out ;)
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Great another weapon nerfed... Like I said already this is not the weapon's fault, the problem is we don't get any stun/stagger resistance after the initial hit. This is why we get stun/pushed so easily by shotgun fifth council enemies or loath's cookie gun etc. Just give everyone 2-3 seconds of CC immunity each time you get hit by a crowd control effect no need to nerf these guns.
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When the community manager uses Valeria as her profile picture, something in my gut says i should take what she says with a grain of salt lol.
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Just make it push without stagger that seems the easiest fix.
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Great another weapon nerfed... Like I said already this is not the weapon's fault, the problem is we don't get any stun/stagger resistance after the initial hit. This is why we get stun/pushed so easily by shotgun fifth council enemies or loath's cookie gun etc. Just give everyone 2-3 seconds of CC immunity each time you get hit by a crowd control effect no need to nerf these guns.
This^^^. Just give it the same UI as the silence debuff from The Enemy Within.
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Hi again guys!
Just letting you know you'll see some changes for the O. Tolchok (we are evaluating how to make the experience less frustrating) in the next patch. We'll let you know when this update is out ;)
Thanks for the response! Very interested in the patch notes (https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/492542343686127627.png?v=1)
When the community manager uses Valeria as her profile picture, something in my gut says i should take what she says with a grain of salt lol.
.....what? "I won't take the community manager seriously because their profile pic is FROM THEIR OWN GAME"
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/315765053364109312/501825291270750208/this-bears-the-mark-of-heresy-via-9gag-com-31468600.png)
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This is a joke about the Dev picking the picture of Valeria knowing how crazy Valeria is. Haha
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Is this real life or is this a simulation?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Is this real life or is this a simulation?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
"i'm just a rich girl from a rich family"
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I seriously can't believe this gun hasn't been changed outside of damage reduction. 3 mentor matches in a row with a 150+ antagonist. New player can't do anything against it.
Just tried it myself and didn't die once against a 100+ antagonist. You get one shot on target and you win as they can't move. How is that fair? Reducing the damage does nothing to stop it being overpowered.
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I seriously can't believe this gun hasn't been changed outside of damage reduction. 3 mentor matches in a row with a 150+ antagonist. New player can't do anything against it.
Just tried it myself and didn't die once against a 100+ antagonist. You get one shot on target and you win as they can't move. How is that fair? Reducing the damage does nothing to stop it being overpowered.
Agreed 100%. I suspect an overhaul for it to be coming in the future, this is what was said after we started talking about Tolchok after the last patch:
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/315765053364109312/502545811029360640/unknown.png)
A 5% damage reduction is pretty weak but that reply still gives me hope that a true fix will come later to address the pushback stunlock.