Mercurysteam's Hangout
BARRACKS => Suggestions => Topic started by: Geisty on October 20, 2017, 06:34:19 PM
-
This happens quite often and I'm certain that some Antagonists even take exploit it, like they should.
(This is on Xbox One)
The other day I queued up as Antag and got put into a match on the Prologue. Looking at the enemy team, the entire team had the baby pacifier symbol (Meatbag rank). I began to get giddy, even laughed maniacally as the game loaded up because I knew these were fresh players and I was about to annihilate them. In under a minute as Kuzmann, I team wiped them, and in the end, they were trapped in spawn and Lycus was killed. After the match, one of the players informed me that he would be uninstalling because the game was broken.
Now, this happens a lot as Antag. 9/10, myself and my friends are thrown into the Prologue just to farm completely new players for Antag rank. I always stop around Rank 15 or so because it gets boring.
The biggest dilemma with this though:
Is allowing people to play Antag on The Prologue discouraging new players? Certainly it would seem so. I've had new players disconnect after a few minutes of play, and when I check on their status, they have moved on to another game.
I'm bringing awareness to this because I'm tired of sitting in a 20-30 minute queue for a match (because I don't want to play the Prologue for the 7 billionth time, I'm tryna farm blueprints >.>) when I could be playing something else.
-
This is bigest problem with antogonis becouse its op and up in the same time. Couze i just played a prologue mission withount antogonis but wit 3 fresh meats. And i lost. And during all of this i was thinling.
It will be so much easier with antogonis couze you know with antogonist bots become dumb as hell.
-
I agree with the op. Even though I look forward to some easy points I can't help but feel guilty cause I know I probably scarred off a new player or two from ever playing the Game again
-
I agree with the op. Even though I look forward to some easy points I can't help but feel guilty cause I know I probably scarred off a new player or two from ever playing the Game again
Tbh, I'm kind of terrible and don't feel guilty per say, I'm just practical and recognize that by wrecking new players, I am directly destroying my own chances of being able to load up a match. Currently sitting in a queue and have been for like... 14 minutes. 🙄
-
It’s important for new players to get the full understanding of the game, and by skipping Antagonists they’d be totally blindsided by that segment of gameplay if they did purchase.
-
Tried to play it last night. Was in queue for 10 minutes before logging off and jumping into Warframe...
The Antagonist SYSTEM WILL KILL THIS GAME, if IT IS NOT ADDRESSED SOON, and FIXED ASAP. What was described above, happens ALOT, I imagine.
New Players: "Oh cool. This game looks awesome!" *loads in, gets ready, annnnd ANTAGONIST warning. Match Starts, and Antagonist begins annihilating the New players. After a few minutes, New players disconnect from the match, uninstall, and go to the steam forums and detail what happened. Potential players, i.e. NEW CUSTOMERS, are put off by this kind of gameplay, and AVOIDS THE GAME AT ALL COSTS.
Game is dead within a MONTH of release.
-
Or maybe they could make tutorial video in game that you must watch the firsrt time you play. Or put big icon the direction of the tutorial they already have at least explaining antagonists
-
Sois unos mancos lloricas aprended a coordinaros!! un antagonista contra un equipo minimamente coordinado no tiene nada que hacer. Si esos nuevos jugadores buscaban un juego casual y fácilon se equivocaron, Raiders es duro y no regala nada por eso mola tanto. Aunque coincido en que el modo antagonista necesita un ajuste pero para justo lo contrario, darle algo más de ventaja al antagonista.
-
It’s important for new players to get the full understanding of the game, and by skipping Antagonists they’d be totally blindsided by that segment of gameplay if they did purchase.
See, this comes back to a fundamental quality of the game that I've mentioned before in that it needs an in depth tutorial. No one would be surprised, no one would be turned off. Or even, I know some games have grace periods, like you have to be of a certain rank before being matched against real people.
-
Sois unos mancos lloricas aprended a coordinaros!! un antagonista contra un equipo minimamente coordinado no tiene nada que hacer. Si esos nuevos jugadores buscaban un juego casual y fácilon se equivocaron, Raiders es duro y no regala nada por eso mola tanto. Aunque coincido en que el modo antagonista necesita un ajuste pero para justo lo contrario, darle algo más de ventaja al antagonista.
Exacto. O al menos algo de recompensa al Antagonista cuando pierde.
-
I agree with the op. Even though I look forward to some easy points I can't help but feel guilty cause I know I probably scarred off a new player or two from ever playing the Game again
In up argument. There was one time where i win match wit antogonis with 2 players logof in the begining. There was only me KUzman and other guy Kinstantin and we punish antogonist. Licus and i must say that antogonist wasnt a noob he was pretty decent it just if you have a team that know what to do and stay together it will be harder for antogonist to win.
-
I think that this guy is crying more in this, I am antagonist (if it is used when I get the mission of the prologue) but also I have kicked the ass people who collaborate cares and supports too much not to be hunted by me ) so think it is a cooperative game is not so that you are looking for the mvp that more kill or make more goals. Everyone goes to victory so cover the backs of another Raider.
-
You're definitely going to rail new players on the Prologue (I have on nearly all my runs) if you're playing as 'any' character that puts them in a disposition. What do I mean? To start, I mean a character they cannot try so they lack understanding of that character's mechanics. Even on characters they can choose most new players wont realize how abilities work. In fact, it's not uncommon to see them not use their abilities at all. So 'you' roll in there with a often 'full' understanding of what kind of damage you can do and they just feel overwhelmed.
On the flip side, I've won a match (A Fistful of Sand) against an Antagonist with two drop outs. That means, we were just two people against an Antagonist and all the NPCs and that sucks but we did it because we ended up working really well together. I also passed the Prologue in a similar situation where it was just me and one other person left and we both played snipers lol. So you might say that people just not being brave enough to stick it out is part of the problem but that turns into a huge argument of time versus reward.
Really what is more damning than damning the game itself is how unwilling people seem to be to work together. Even the most ragtag group working together will do better than four hotshots thinking they're going to steamroll everything with their l33tn3ss. I mean even if you strip away the Antagonist the game can still the jack the difficulty up (higher ranks have likely seen this) and rail you pretty hard so working together is always going to be the key factor.
-
This can also be worked out with voice chat to enable strategies. Also level limits would normally be put in place buuut
-
You're definitely going to rail new players on the Prologue (I have on nearly all my runs) if you're playing as 'any' character that puts them in a disposition. What do I mean? To start, I mean a character they cannot try so they lack understanding of that character's mechanics. Even on characters they can choose most new players wont realize how abilities work. In fact, it's not uncommon to see them not use their abilities at all. So 'you' roll in there with a often 'full' understanding of what kind of damage you can do and they just feel overwhelmed.
On the flip side, I've won a match (A Fistful of Sand) against an Antagonist with two drop outs. That means, we were just two people against an Antagonist and all the NPCs and that sucks but we did it because we ended up working really well together. I also passed the Prologue in a similar situation where it was just me and one other person left and we both played snipers lol. So you might say that people just not being brave enough to stick it out is part of the problem but that turns into a huge argument of time versus reward.
Really what is more damning than damning the game itself is how unwilling people seem to be to work together. Even the most ragtag group working together will do better than four hotshots thinking they're going to steamroll everything with their l33tn3ss. I mean even if you strip away the Antagonist the game can still the jack the difficulty up (higher ranks have likely seen this) and rail you pretty hard so working together is always going to be the key factor.
You are mistaken, the players don't "owe" anything to the game, they are first and foremost customers (or potential customers) and consumers. If they come into the game and get steam rolled by an antag they don't owe it to the game or anyone else to say, "I should shake this off and try harder." This is a first impression, they have the right to merely impassively log out and say, "This game sucks." and simply uninstall and go to another game. They don't care about "hard core" they don't care about "l33t" they care about their time and money and how it's spent, and if they get rolled by an antag they have and will simply leave, with nothing owed to the antag or developers.
For these reasons I agree with the OP, they need to keep antag out of prologue or certain levels of players. This is a video game, people, not a Darwanistic experiment. First impressions should be fun and interesting. Whether you agree with this philosophy or not, what if fact is that new players who experience this will leave and this will hurt the game that we love.
-
I see complaints about the antag system, and I just see copy+paste complaints about invaders in Dark Souls. If a player can't handle the possibility of pvp in a 4v1 scenario, there are other games with less conflict and easier gameplay.
Story time x2:
Perhaps there should be some kind of safeguards to protect against Lv18 antagonists wrecking a 1st time player's shit, buuuuut... I've also wrecked an Lv16 antag in the prologue and had 2 never-played-before noobs on my team, they were fantastic. Now they did have me as an experienced Loaht in the game, but the antag barely had any chance to do anything, and it was honestly the most fun I've had playing. I recorded what I could here (noobsy still fell prey to the aleph explotions, every time one happened, plz make them easier to learn for noobs!):
https://youtu.be/U749KSfmkMQ
And then there's times like a couple nights ago where I played with someone named Jenny_Frost and 2 Meatbags.... Jenny was a lv6 raider (Kuzman, who's great in prologue), and we had a low rank antag hop in with Mikah. Jenny suggested to surrender in LESS THAN A MINUTE of playing, just stopped moving and playing, and eventually DC'd forcing host migration, 1 player dropped, and then the other noob DC'd causing a second host migration. Jenny and 1 of the noobs reconnected AFTER I solo'd enough to get Lycus to the platform, then they both forced a surrender! I was pretty angry because why even play the game???
So it really depends on the players you get. And honestly if the antag system causes people who can't take a little challenge to leave, then so be it. I can't stand getting teamed up with people who give up and cause a loss for the whole team because they feel the odds are too great for whatever reason.
-
I see complaints about the antag system, and I just see copy+paste complaints about invaders in Dark Souls. If a player can't handle the possibility of pvp in a 4v1 scenario, there are other games with less conflict and easier gameplay.
Story time x2:
Perhaps there should be some kind of safeguards to protect against Lv18 antagonists wrecking a 1st time player's shit, buuuuut... I've also wrecked an Lv16 antag in the prologue and had 2 never-played-before noobs on my team, they were fantastic. Now they did have me as an experienced Loaht in the game, but the antag barely had any chance to do anything, and it was honestly the most fun I've had playing. I recorded what I could here (noobsy still fell prey to the aleph explotions, every time one happened, plz make them easier to learn for noobs!):
https://youtu.be/U749KSfmkMQ
And then there's times like a couple nights ago where I played with someone named Jenny_Frost and 2 Meatbags.... Jenny was a lv6 raider (Kuzman, who's great in prologue), and we had a low rank antag hop in with Mikah. Jenny suggested to surrender in LESS THAN A MINUTE of playing, just stopped moving and playing, and eventually DC'd forcing host migration, 1 player dropped, and then the other noob DC'd causing a second host migration. Jenny and 1 of the noobs reconnected AFTER I solo'd enough to get Lycus to the platform, then they both forced a surrender! I was pretty angry because why even play the game???
So it really depends on the players you get. And honestly if the antag system causes people who can't take a little challenge to leave, then so be it. I can't stand getting teamed up with people who give up and cause a loss for the whole team because they feel the odds are too great for whatever reason.
I am not sure if the developers agree with you that it would be better to lose players. This isn't about game philosophy or "being leet" it's simply pure capitalistic interest. If the devs can save some of the more PvE orientated players in a 50% PvE orientated game, they should. If the Antag system drives away new players that would otherwise love the normal mission content then this is a clear financial choice, lose players and money when you don't have to or keep players and ease them into the antag system.
YOU don't have any financial risk on the line so you can afford to have your opinions. Think about it if you were a developer and you had a lot on the line and your game is already heavy PvE in the first place, what is necessary and what isn't?
I love the basic premise of this game, but I absolutely hate the antag system. I feel the antagonist is a barrier to my fun and to my goals. I feel having to PLAY as antag is just another unfun barrier to getting weapons I want. I'm still with the game because at least they have Raiders that are good at handling an antag, it cost me 240k. I stayed with the game because I get plenty of games with NO antag at all, but if all games had an antag, I wouldn't be here, and I wouldn't have spent $60 for the full package. Think about that. How can we have both systems without sacrificing certain players? I think OP brings up a good point.
-
Not trying to say that the game needs to keep only hardcorest of players or intentionally push people away, but the antagonist system is part of the core game and is one aspect that sets it apart from others, which is directly comparable to the Invasion concept in Dark Souls. And the same players that don't want to play Dark Souls because some clown will come in and screw them up are the same players who will quit this if an antagonist show up.... the difference being that here, you are ruining the entire squads fun when you refuse to play or disconnect because the game is being played as intended.
I do not see any way of keeping these players happy as long as the antag system exists at all. A solo reward system would be nice and would be like playing Dark Souls offline- no risk of antagonist, but also no help from other players. But it also has the problem of reducing matchmaking for both raiders and antags, which they have stated multiple times that the game is intended to be played online in a squad.
-
What's getting forgotten in this debate is you wont even get an Antagonist every time. In fact, when you don't you'll notice your rewards aren't nearly as sweet. However, new players probably don't get they are actually being given a better reward for the increased risk and that's been debated on both sides a lot. There's whole threads dedicated to both sides. On one side, you have Antagonists complaining it's too hard to fight 4 players by themselves. Back on the Raider side, the Antagonist is just too skilled and it's unfair to us new players! However, regardless of the side you sit on the answer is going to be the same... dedicate more time to getting better because we 'all' did or just give up. Personally, I rather people not give up but I'm also not one to force people to do things they're not enjoying and then expect me to convince them. I ain't your pusher man!
-
What's getting forgotten in this debate is you wont even get an Antagonist every time. In fact, when you don't you'll notice your rewards aren't nearly as sweet. However, new players probably don't get they are actually being given a better reward for the increased risk and that's been debated on both sides a lot. There's whole threads dedicated to both sides. On one side, you have Antagonists complaining it's too hard to fight 4 players by themselves. Back on the Raider side, the Antagonist is just too skilled and it's unfair to us new players! However, regardless of the side you sit on the answer is going to be the same... dedicate more time to getting better because we 'all' did or just give up. Personally, I rather people not give up but I'm also not one to force people to do things they're not enjoying and then expect me to convince them. I ain't your pusher man!
Or players like me could bring it up on the forums in hopes that there will be an implemented change due to our feedback to improve our consumer experience as customers. I've been on both ends of antag, but to be honest, I wouldn't have ever played as antag if I wasn't forced to.
I believe there are solutions that can help both player types. The first would be not to lock weapons behind the antag system. This, I think, is the core and worst problem. Another solution is better rewards for Antag players, like Gold, Character and Faction points.
Often the argument people bring up is, "Well antag needs to have a reason for people to play it so they need to have weapons there." Ask yourself why people would avoid antag in the first place? And if you don't believe that people would avoid antag in the first place and that it is indeed fun enough to be played on it's own, why then would weapons be locked there in the first place? See the inconstancy of this argument? Ultimately why would someone be forced to have to choose a game mode? That seems silly.
Please don't wave away new player impression with, "Git gud!" because that is a financially unstable view point for a company to take. You can afford to have this argument because you are a player and do not have anything on the line as a developer. But I assure you it is different if you are actually TRYING to bring in new players. I don't believe the developers completely agree with your "git gud" philosophy. If they do, they won't last long. I think it's unwise to have new players exposed to antags. At least give them the option, like in Dark Souls, not to be invaded. I know I would be happy to take a reduced amount of rewards if it meant I could play the game antag free. That would be the cost I would be willing to play for QoL, but I know this is unlikely because it would split the queues.
The devs say they have something in the works to address this issue, which means they believe it IS an issue, which is good. I am holding my breath in the meantime.
-
Even if you forget the Antagonist... really you do have to get better. I don't think that's a part of the design they ever plan to change. I also do not think getting better at a game that has any level of complexity can be accomplished without some level of dedication unless you're some kind of gaming genius. Really, the nicest thing I can say now is just stick with it and you likely will get better. However, as I stated elsewhere there is a community over at the Discord and I strongly feel that a great place to curb initial confusion newer players have on not just Antagonist but other aspects as well. Of course, there is nothing saying the game wont change from what we know now since it already has. Thus, I am both curious and hopeful about how new changes will affect the game and community.
-
When I first started playing this game, I ran into several Antags. I thought they had some special ability being the Antag. So I bought the game.... turns out I was just terrible. LoL
I too would cringe every time one would spawn. Here comes a beating, but something happened the more I played. I learned their tricks, I played Antag and saw how they were countered. They weren't monsters anymore, they became fodder. Now I get excited when I see them, it adds a different twist to the same map I have literally played a hundred times before.
Rarely do I get beaten, but when I do, I appreciate and learn from that experience.
-
You know what's worse... when we don't spawn... and we wait and we stalk you using invisible powers like a Doldren without a body!
-
Bigger incentives to play solo are desperately needed, so newcomers don't get stomped and can learn the while still progressing, you dont even get XP, which means you can't unlock new characters or cards,
You are heavily incentivised to play multiplayer immediately and will get crushed over and over.
-
Definitely, Bllodborne is a hard game, but the initial area is esigned to ease you with easier enemies and less of them.
If it wanted to turn off people quickly, it could have easily thrown them into an endgame area with a ton of hard mobs, which is essentially what Raiders allows to happen.
Hades missions are definitely harder than "Hanging by a thread' but with early skill and levelled teams against high level Antags, they feel the same.
-
Yea, this needs to change. New players are getting slaughtered and continuing to create ruinous reviews for the game as a result. Say "git gud" all you want to, that's not gonna stop them from killing this game because of really bad PvP design.
-
I want to throw my support in on this as well. I was trying to show a friend the ropes and bring them up to speed (while netting some mercury points as well) and antagonist shows up and goes to town. It should be a stage where you are getting your feet wet not getting hunted mercilessly by a more experienced player from the get go. I was unable to get my friend to buy into the game sadly and he enjoyed it fine outside of the antagonist.
-
Actual photo of me, playing antagonist when I invade a game with newbies
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/315765053364109312/433374125642219521/30516171_327645104307378_5555623554101280768_n.png?width=565&height=437)
Seriously I have never seen a game with more complaints that new players need to be treated like newborn babies and not be able to experience and intended mechanic of the game. f2p newbies want to play antagonist too, since it's core gameplay, if you remove the ability to antagonist on the prologue or map of the week, new players would then be locked out of the ability to play antag themselves. It was one of the first things I did when I first started playing the game (and back then it was the ONLY way to play Lycus since he can't be used on the ONE free mission).
-
Hi guys!
New players protection is one of our main goals. We want them to discover and enjoy either Raider and Antagonist modes without suffering punishment of veteran players. The forthcoming hot-patch will include more adjustments related to that, and you can expect us to keep iterating on it throughout the campaign.
-
Thankyou devs for taking this stuff to heart, keep up the good work.
-
Hi guys!
New players protection is one of our main goals. We want them to discover and enjoy either Raider and Antagonist modes without suffering punishment of veteran players. The forthcoming hot-patch will include more adjustments related to that, and you can expect us to keep iterating on it throughout the campaign.
Fantastic news!!! Thanks for the update!