[Ghostman128]

There is just so much wrong with the antagonist system it really doesn’t make sense. Like WTF WERE YALL THINKING?

1. Why in gods name would you pit a low level, say like 15-30ish against teams with levels 100, 80, 60ish people. Look I get that if you can’t find a game the search widens up but why does it feel like a punishment to be put against these people. Sometimes one punch is all it takes from them.  Just unbalanced!

2. The AI difficulty should increase slightly when an antagonist is on the map. Simply because we have no one to really rely on it would be helpful if they AI fought well every time.

3. Certain matches antagonist should not be on period and I’m sure raiders can agree like THE BOSS BATTLES!!!

4. I shouldn’t have to play antagonist to upgrade my weapons

5.The reward system is completely f*cked up. Win or lose. Rewards on this should count on how many times you kill the raiders and delay them even if mission fails the score should be decent if the kill count and delay is good. If we get a mission success the score should be always 10.

I don’t think y’all realized how bad of a situation you put antagonist in but the crazy part is yall do and received a lot of negative feedbacks and do nothing about it

[TheBrentWoody]

Git Gud?

[ProjectEfuzion]

1: you get put up against higher level players due MMR rating. (It widens up after a long queue)
2: Again MMR make the ai more difficult.
3: Just the way maps work...
4: Ofcourse antagonist mode offers different weapon blueprints stop whining.
5: Here i kinda agree with you that the rewards for playing antagonist are kinda small and could be buffed a bit.

[TheBrentWoody]

That was obligatory.  Now I'll actually respond. 

1: It's based on MMR, so when you're fighting high levels and low levels...its because they keep losing to maps.  People with too high mmr lower our mmrs on purpose because at bout 60% the game is dumb...a lot.

2: DISAGREE.  There are some matches I'm pretty confident I could do alone (and it has felt like I have.)  With AI that actually does something that would make it -way- too easy.

3. Nah.  Antagonists should be on boss battles...it gives you something else to do.  Some matches are just easier for antags and some for raiders..it is fun.  My only issue is the escort missions where the people being escorted are made of paper.

4. Agreed.

5. Rewards shouldn't be based on a metric, because you can just not kill anyone and still win if you're delaying the objectives to the point you win.  You probably will need to kill -some- people, but not a lot by any means.

I mean, there are a handful of antags that make the game miserable.  (In a fun way, if you have a team you know, or just actually miserable if you're trying to carry against AI, Boss, and a great antag.) Hah.  I don't know how long you've played yet, but as you experience each of these things you'll get a clearer picture as to why these fixes may not be the right way to go...for the most part.

[Ghostman128]

1: you get put up against higher level players due MMR rating. (It widens up after a long queue)
2: Again MMR make the ai more difficult.
3: Just the way maps work...
4: Ofcourse antagonist mode offers different weapon blueprints stop whining.
5: Here i kinda agree with you that the rewards for playing antagonist are kinda small and could be buffed a bit.

When it comes to 4 they keep giving me loahts weapon and I don’t even use him I’m going to whine how I want on that

[Ghostman128]

And it’s not like I’m garbage here I’ve won a lot more antagonist matches then I lost but y’all would be insane to say “antagonist is a good mode” but I’ve only started this game for a week so maybe when I’m higher level with better shit maybe I’ll look at it differently

[Level9Drow]

Much of what you say, Ghostman128, is true. But the situation is nuanced and it's also true on the other side. There are games where the antag is high level but the AI is TOO weak and the raiders are NOT new just lower level and the Antag get's ovewhelmed. Other games the antag is lower level (50-80) and the raiders are 100 plus, but the AI is boosted to ungodly levels of power and can one hit melee the raiders and have 800 health and all the Antag has to do is AFK and he wins (I can attest to this). Many raiders have to throw games to increase their queue times because if your MMR is too high you get no games. The MMR system is wonky altogether right now.

I agree with you on point 4. But I generally believe PvP should be optional.

[ProjectEfuzion]

1: you get put up against higher level players due MMR rating. (It widens up after a long queue)
2: Again MMR make the ai more difficult.
3: Just the way maps work...
4: Ofcourse antagonist mode offers different weapon blueprints stop whining.
5: Here i kinda agree with you that the rewards for playing antagonist are kinda small and could be buffed a bit.

When it comes to 4 they keep giving me loahts weapon and I don’t even use him I’m going to whine how I want on that

Pure RNG it’s a bitch i know. Not a reason to whine about cause loads of (succesfull) games use RNG

[LordDraco3]

1. Unbalanced game vs. no game. Gotta get into a matchup eventually. But MMR is what dictates matches, not level. Level is also a scapegoat, more an indication of how many games played than anything. The passive stat bonuses are not as massive as you may be led to believe. A lvl 100 can still be 1-shot by a level 1 player, and no level difference will protect you from CQC. Think of combat as "how many shots must I land to wound or kill, or how many seconds will it take" rather than raw damage numbers.

2. lololol so in case you didn't know, sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. Their algorithms are very flawed for sure, but this suggestion, as a blanket statement, is terrible. Here's what it looks like with a good antag+strong AI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zrbjvu8uiqo
Also read this thread:
https://www.raidersofthebrokenplanet.com/community/index.php?topic=1455.0
With a weak antag that gives high level AI a boost in power, it can make the game unwinnable simply due to the AI. It bothers me WAY more to lose "to the map" as we say (because the antag is terrible and not even a threat at all, but the AI are juggernauts), than to lose to a skilled player, any day of the week.

3. Nope, all maps are fair game.
You think antags have an easy time on bosses, but antags lower boss health SO much that it can actually make bosses easier, if the raider team is able to divide their attention appropriately. Enemy Within and Beast Lair are easily 2 of the hardest maps to be antagonist on, and any skilled antag will probably agree with me.

4 & 5. This is pretty universally agreed upon. The key to making antag mode a good play option is to give rewards equal to or better than the raider mode, not to require it for basic functions... I'd like to see 10k+ gold/faction rewards, 100% blueprint drop chance, or even just giving us all of the rewards from the antag screen rather than making us pick 1. The current rewards are *awful* for the mode, no matter how good you do, you will NOT get more than 4k, so it's no secret as to why the mode isn't "popular".

I honestly enjoy playing antag mode a lot, even more than being a raider. But the *long* wait time coupled with bad rewards makes me opt for a 4-man squad that lets us play on demand. I'll take teamwork that gets me instant games and good rewards to fund my progress over long waits that might pair me with 800 ping matches for low rewards.

[XjabberwockieX]

When you said the lv100 can get one shot by a lv1 Draco this is true but as far as the passive buffs for being a high level go, I about passed out laughing when I allowed a lv.5 Harec to cqc my Hive during an Antag affinity stint I didnt feel like trying hard in. It took the Harec about 8 or 9 punches and kicks to drop me. I felt tired watching the guy. You get so used to dropping elites and other players in 2 or 3 hits that you forget how big the gap is physically when you are against new players.    Same match an Alicia with the vanilla novera was around ten feet away and the bullets werent even registering damage, it looked like they were hitting me but nothing was happening so I dont know. Maybe I was right outside the range or the discrepancy was too large with the bonuses to armor or something.

[Ghostman128]

Much of what you say, Ghostman128, is true. But the situation is nuanced and it's also true on the other side. There are games where the antag is high level but the AI is TOO weak and the raiders are NOT new just lower level and the Antag get's ovewhelmed. Other games the antag is lower level (50-80) and the raiders are 100 plus, but the AI is boosted to ungodly levels of power and can one hit melee the raiders and have 800 health and all the Antag has to do is AFK and he wins (I can attest to this). Many raiders have to throw games to increase their queue times because if your MMR is too high you get no games. The MMR system is wonky altogether right now.

I agree with you on point 4. But I generally believe PvP should be optional.

I agree

[Ghostman128]

Really all I’m saying there are some changes that could be made here everyone is entitled to there opinion but this game has potential to do so much better than what we have especially with 5. It’s frustrating win you win and no blueprint pops up. It’s like oh you won but no weapon for you besides the same weapon I’ve been giving you since you started playing. The antagonist boss is truly evil

[Level9Drow]

When you said the lv100 can get one shot by a lv1 Draco this is true but as far as the passive buffs for being a high level go, I about passed out laughing when I allowed a lv.5 Harec to cqc my Hive during an Antag affinity stint I didnt feel like trying hard in. It took the Harec about 8 or 9 punches and kicks to drop me. I felt tired watching the guy. You get so used to dropping elites and other players in 2 or 3 hits that you forget how big the gap is physically when you are against new players.    Same match an Alicia with the vanilla novera was around ten feet away and the bullets werent even registering damage, it looked like they were hitting me but nothing was happening so I dont know. Maybe I was right outside the range or the discrepancy was too large with the bonuses to armor or something.

Yea, sometimes I think he's thinking of like, the most ideal and optimal situations. Then YES, "technically" a level 1 could one shot a level 100. But even though this is "possible" it isn't likely. Most situations aren't this forgiving.

The game really doesn't start, in any fair sense, until level 150. And even then you have to drive your MMR down so that you get lots of games, of course. If everyone was just level 150 it would be awesome! But, they're not.

[Level9Drow]

Really all I’m saying there are some changes that could be made here everyone is entitled to there opinion but this game has potential to do so much better than what we have especially with 5. It’s frustrating win you win and no blueprint pops up. It’s like oh you won but no weapon for you besides the same weapon I’ve been giving you since you started playing. The antagonist boss is truly evil

Te be honest I think they need to get rid of Level stats and weapon forge stats. Normalize the characters and weapons. You should never make a PvP situation where levels and gear dictate the outcome of the match, it's not TRUE PvP (Drow talking about PvP, the nerve of him). But this is such a core feature for them I don't know if they'd be willing to give this up.

Also, as others have brought up, the enemy AI would then become a factor too much in the outcome then. But if they allowed us, both raiders and antagonists, to choose what level of difficulty to play in this problem would be gone (assuming PvP was an optional thing in the first place, otherwise all Antags would play on the hardest AI mode, LOL).

What we can glean form this game is that balancing asymmetrical PvP is REALLY F***ING HARD. And I don;t envy their hard work at MSE. Evolve was very similar.

[Imperium]

The AI already factors into matches far too much. They're either too weak or way too damn strong (spawning in huge clusters and suddenly none of their guns jam and they shoot consistent medium to high damage shots).

Or the AI is butterfingers and can't find the front end of the gun or too busy reading their training manual.

It's not like MOBAs, where the AI is there to be guided to the goal and is relatively inconsequential on its own.

The forced PvP is a huge deterrent, and the people who keep saying "git gud" are pushing money and players away from the game who might one day warm up to PvP.

There aren't enough players to be picky about who joins as long as it ultimately adds to the likelihood of finding a game.